Negative Experts’ opinions

[Bryn]

Bryn, somehow I don’t think Brendel was being flippant!

Nor did I suggest as much. Beethoven's humour is a serious business. Here is András Schiff on the same movement:

To me the movement, at least in its theme, is extremely humorous - one thinks of tin soldiers marching on, which even the accents would suit. At the same time the theme's second half, which Beethoven asks to be repeated, offers a surprise, for four bars the character suddenly changes to something expressively intimate, before we have to go marching on again. In so doing, the performer has to play the short notes exactly as written. I mention this because I have the impression that nowadays many players are worried by short note-values and prefer to pedal through them. The contrapuntal layout of the first variation for violin and viola. The second is rather more pointillistic: fragmentary elements out of which the picture has to be gradually assembled; in the third and last, played "sempre ligato", the theme evaporates, and in doing so take on the aspect of a sort of anticipatory 'homage to Schumann'. At the end, the coda reprises the theme as a 'marche ouliée' in pianissimo chords until the witty box on the ears of the final fortissimo crochet.

[kuligin]

The " Jena" Symphony was discovered at the turn of the 20th Cenbtury and attributed to Beethoven and published as such. I think it transpired that it was composed by some one else all together!

[Bryn]

The 'Jena' Symphony is a decidedly Witty work.

[I'll get someone's goat.]

[Simon]

An interesting thread topic. I don't know that I've ever ben influenced unduly by the opinions of experts about art. I suppose I'd claim that mu own opinion of any work of art - or alleged work of art in some cases! - was as valid for me as anyone else's opinion was for them. (I'd also be likely in many cases to value the opinion of the disinterested observer/hearer over that of someone who stood to gain from the promotion of said art, but that's another angle).

With regard to science, it's maybe a bit different. Provided I had no reason to distrust either the knowledge or the good faith of the expert, I'd probably listen to them and take what they said as likely to be valid. I don't want to open this up again, but that's why the climate change scenario was so difficult (for me at least): wherever you went, there were experts saying the opposite of each other. Like many, I therefore concluded that nobody was certain one way or the other - but also, like many, I decided it would probably be wise to err on the side of safety.

Back to music: perhaps we're more likely to be influenced by the positives than the negatives. I wouldn't stop liking Mozart if somebody decried him, but I'd probably be more inclined to give a composer a listen if someone I respected recommended him.

bws to all

S-S!

[Simon]

#18.

Goat? That comment is worth a couple of Ganoraks at least!

[Auferstehen2]

Interesting replies, thanks.

Bryn, I must apologise – I simply misunderstood your point about humour in music, and having reread it, it makes much more sense. Your snippet on Schiff’s “take” on this (another awful Americanism) is highly interesting, making Brendel’s comment all the more annoying in being unable to pin it down for a reason. Thanks once more Bryn.

Simon’s contribution (no, I’m not being sycophantic) is the sort of thought that would completely escape me. The idea that someone might stand to gain commercially never occurred to me, but I suppose there are people with such heinous motives – but not Brendel surely? Granted this comment was made some 32 years ago, but for selfish commercial reasons? Perhaps I’m being naïve.

You know, I really thought I knew my Beethoven – can someone take me through this Jena thing? Is this a Beethoven work or what?

Incidentally, out of interest, can I ask again whether anyone has had their personal convictions on a work changed in any way by comments, positive or negative, made by a performer/musician they admire?

Thanks,

Mario

[Simon]

but not Brendel surely?

No, Aufer: not Brendel. I wasn't referring to him with that part. But there are indeed in the world of art, as well as in the world of other things, people who will talk up something naff becauser they stand to gain!

[salymap]

Breitkopf who published the 'Jenaer' 25mins. would surely have done their homework before attributing it to Beethoven. Of course my catalogue is c.1955 so maybe they don't sell or and hire it out now.

[Bryn]

salymap, it was not util some time in the mid 1950s that the 'Jena' Symphony was correctly re-attributed to its composer, Friedrich Witt. HCRL uncovered a previously unknown copy which bore Witt's name. The previous attribution to Beethoven was based solely on its style + enthusiastic guesswork.

[Roehre]

I see from my old Goodwin hire catalogue that, apart from the well known 9,
Beethoven had published Battle op.91 and the Jenaer in C. I think the op.91 was requested once and that was Wellington's Victory. Has anyone played in or heard the Jenaer?

The Jena Symphony was on a BBC MM CD (IIRC coupled with Mozart 34), and there exist a couple of recordings of it. One was on Melodya, coupled with Beethoven's First (which makes much sense).

A remarkable story, and one which at the present state of Beethoven research would be not very likely.

The symphony itself was known for quite a long time, though by an anonymous composer, before in 1909 parts of the work were discovered in the library of the University of Jena, wearing the name of Bethofen. The discovery was made public by Professor Fritz Stein, eminent musicologist (Universities of Jena and Kiel) and as conductor a succesor to Brahms in Meiningen.
Especially the scherzo was considered to be a particularly typical Beethoven-scherzo. Even Hugo Riemann acknowledged that it was highly likely the piece was by Beethoven.

As a Beethoven symphony it was published in 1912 by Breitkopf und Härtel.
Until 1957 Beethoven's authorship was accepted. Nowadays that would be unlikely, as identification and assessing of the Beethoven sketchbooks show, that not one single sketch of the work could be traced.
That is the more remarkable, because of a large work like this (size similar to opus 21) one would expect at least some sketches, as there are a some 290bar movement for a symphony in c-minor, sketches (including a full score fragment of the introduction) of a symphony in C (predating opus 21), and other loose fragments most likely meant for symphonic or orchestral works (including the lost oboe concerto e.g.).
Though the lack of sketches doesn't prove a work is not by Beethoven, the sketches from the time in which the Jena was supposed to be written are considered to be relatively complete (i.e. though pages are missing, B refers to those missing pages and -more importantly as a consequence- implicitly to their contents). All these sketches were published in 1970. But here was more: this symphony was not mentioned at all in any of the surviving beethovenian correspondence, though Beethoven was generally quick in offering works "under construction" to conaisseurs and publishers.

In 1957 however HC Robbins Landon browsed through the contents of the library of the Benedictin monastery in Göttweig in Austria, one of the most important musical libraries in that country. The score of a Symphony in C by one Friedrich Witt emerged. This score and the parts found in Jena were the same piece.
Robbins Landon futher showed, that the town council of Jena acquired two Witt-symphonies, most likely in the early 1820s, one in C and one in A.
With some other circumstantial material it now was proven that the Jena was not by Beethoven.

[vinteuil]

Which leaves the interesting question - between 1909/12 and 1957, when performers and audiences presumably believed this to be a Beethoven Symphony - did people "listen" to it differently - differently, that is, from how I imagine people wd listen to it today as a work by Witt?

Is there a quantity of recordings of the work prior to 1957 by serious orchestras/conductors who performed it believing it to be by Beethoven?

[salymap]

Thanks everyone for that. I left Goodwin & Tabb in the mid 1950s,due to serious illness and may have heard some of this at Augener, where I looked after their hire library, but didn't get back to mainly Breitkopf until about 1967 when I worked for the Breitkopf London agents for a time. With Wiesbaden and Leipzig not speaking to each other atthe time Imay have heard about it but forgotten.I'venever heard of a recording. I spelt 'Jenaer' as in the catalogue I have.

[Eudaimonia]

Should I re-examine my allegiances to certain works,

Absolutely not! If you find meaning in it and it affects you deeply, who is anyone to tell you otherwise? It might not be "objectively great," but if you're moved by a piece which leaves a lasting impression on you, that sort of analysis and assessment doesn't matter at all.

I'm far more likely to pay attention to positive comments because they might help me correct my blind spots and broaden my perspective. There's nothing wrong with giving works a second chance if it helps me see things in a new light-- or even understand something about the person recommending them. But telling me I shouldn't like something? Life's too short to be narrow-minded.

[vinteuil]

Is there a quantity of recordings of the work prior to 1957 by serious orchestras/conductors who performed it believing it to be by Beethoven?

well, to answer my own question...

"Anh. 1 Symphony in C, "Jena." This is now known to have been composed by Friedrich Witt, but was still attributed questionably to Beethoven on two 78 rpm recordings. The first was an early electrical 78 rpm conducted by Frieder Weissmann on Polydor 9119, 9120, and 9188, and an electric 78, Werner Janssen, Janssen Symphony of Los Angeles, on Victor set M 946. At least one recording was made on LP, released as Musical Heritage Society 1506W. A recording on cd appeared with BBC Music Magazine vol. IV nr. 6, but we have no information as to whether this cd was ever made available in general release.

Anh. 1, "Jena" Symphony (by Friedrich Witt) appears on the following LPs: Urania URLP 71714, Leipzig Philharmonic Orchestra, Rolf Kleinert, conductor; Concert Hall Limited Edition Release H-1, Netherlands Philharmonic Orchetra, Walter Goehr, conductor; and Musical Heritage Society MHS 1506, Rhineland Philharmonia, Wolfgang Hoffmann, Conductor.
A new CD of the Jena Symphony, Anh. 1 (properly attributed to Friedrich Witt) was recently released on the Pool label in Germany (ASIN B0000287RS), performed appropriately enough by the Jena Philharmonic, conducted by Andreas Weiser. It is presently available for order at http://www.amazon.de"

[Ian]

(I'd also be likely in many cases to value the opinion of the disinterested observer/hearer over that of someone who stood to gain from the promotion of said art, but that's another angle).

Very often, of course, the someone who might well stand to gain from the promotion of a said piece of art might be the same person who was so personally enthused by that art that they chose to put their money where their mouth is, so to speak.