Negative Experts’ opinions

[Guest]

I wonder if others have had their views affected, changed or compromised in any way by the comments of the experts and professionals?

A recent case in point involves Beethoven early Piano Sonata No 10, Op 14 No 2 in G Maj. I’ve always considered the Andante a pretty little movement, just a simple martial-like theme of staccato quavers, with some variations. No, it’s nothing profound, nothing earth-shattering, but an innocent little movement nevertheless.

Enter Alfred Brendel, who says, inter alia, “…nearly always, when something is wrong with Beethoven’s music, the performer has not got the message. I would say that with very few exceptions in the sonatas, with the exception of a movement like the second of Opus 14 No 2 (the variation movement, which I think is a little silly), there’s hardly a weak movement in my eyes.”

Well! Now, I thought to myself, I thought it was rather good, but who am I to argue with a consummate Beethoven interpreter such as Brendel, in my book still one of the great Beethoven performers around?

Have others been similarly moved to re-consider certain compositions? Should I re-examine my allegiances to certain works, or adopt an ostrich’s position and ignore the opinion of those who can play works I can only dream about playing?

Best wishes to all,

Mario

[Alison]

I don't really understand Bernard Haitink's low opinion of Mahler 8.
Much though I admire that man I cant say it has really affected
my sheer enjoyment every time I listen.
Indeed, the Dutchman's own 1988 performances would make for a
notable addition to my archives.

Ive never noticed anything silly about op 14 no 2 either.

[Auferstehen2]

Alison, glad to make your acquaintance again, madam.

Absolutely delighted to hear that I'm not the only one to disagree with Brendel.

(BTW, apropos my name, as homage to Mahler 8, what is Haitink's low opinion of Mahler 8 please?)

Mario

[Panjandrum]

Imogen Cooper denounced Brahms' second PC once, in an interview, in no uncertain terms as "one of the most perverse pieces that have ever been written."

Rather than influence my view of the music I'm afraid it forever coloured my view of the pianist.

[Alison]

Maybe we should understand an artist's need not to be seen as
an uncritical lackey of the composer they are most associated with.

That might deal with Brendel/Beethoven and Haitink/Mahler

As for Imogen, let's face it, she ain't and never will bethe player for Brahms 2 !

[Panjandrum]

As for Imogen, let's face it, she ain't and never will bethe player for Brahms 2 !

[Bryn]

Brendel used to tour a most engaging illustrated lecture on the subject of humour in music. He paid particular attention to that in the work of Haydn and Beethoven. Perhaps his comment re. the silliness of Op. 14/2's Andante should be seen in that context?

[salymap]

Iwould like to ask Alfred Brendel what he means by "...a little silly". Not a very helpful comment without further elucidation.

[Panjandrum]

Enter Alfred Brendel, who says, inter alia, “…nearly always, when something is wrong with Beethoven’s music, the performer has not got the message. I would say that with very few exceptions in the sonatas, with the exception of a movement like the second of Opus 14 No 2 (the variation movement, which I think is a little silly), there’s hardly a weak movement in my eyes.”

Each musician has his/her blind spots: Brendel, famously, said that "life is too short for Rachmaninov"; yet championed the music of Liszt, whom others have seen as the epitome of bombast. I also recall Simon Rattle saying that Tapiola was unprogrammable.

[Auferstehen2]

Hi salymap!

I couldn’t possibly quote the entire article of course, as it is pages long. It appeared in the “Records & Recording” September 1979 edition, a magnificent magazine with contributions by one Thomas Heinitz, from whom I learnt much in his shop in Bayswater London all those years ago when I lived in England, but sadly, like the magazine, he is no longer with us.

Alfred Brendel was being interviewed by Bernard Jacobson, another excellent contributor, when he asks Brendel, “How great a composer do you think Beethoven is?”, and after Brendel confirms in his answer to this extraordinary question, Beethoven’s standing in his eyes as one of the greatest, Jacobson qualifies this by referring to “presence within movements of material that’s below the level of the rest”, citing as an example, “The sort of thing that bothers me for example, is in the last movement of as great a work as the Waldstein Sonata – in a movement as great as the last movement, with that inspired first section: I just cannot listen to the C minor passage with the staccato left hand without feeling that somehow we have gone very much down in level of inspiration.”

I very much disagree with this, no matter Jacobson’s qualifications. But Brendel then goes on to say, “I think Beethoven was one of the greatest melodists in the history of music. He was probably unparalleled in finding themes which suggest unmistakeably a certain kind of character”, and further on, “…when something is wrong with Beethoven’s music…” and the quote I used in my opening post, finishing off by saying, “there’s hardly a weak movement in my eyes, a movement where the choice of thematic material is not justified in some way or other, usually in structural ways.”

So I think silly here is meant to mean trite, inconsequential, irrelevant, of no major import. But then very few works would NOT have some weak point in them, surely? And Bryn, somehow I don’t think Brendel was being flippant!

Mario

[salymap]

Good morning Mario, thanks for that. salymap

[Roehre]

Mario, Just as with listeners (i.e. most of us) and composers, musicians have their own preferences and blind spots. Though in the case of op.14/2ii I do think it is one of Beethoven's weakest piano-sonata-movements indeed. But I beg to differ with Brendel, as a less strong movement does not mean that it's a bit silly. For really silly Beethoven we have to look to commissions like some mvts of the Cantata op.136 e.g., or some of the variations in some of the variation sets, e.g. the one on the Swiss song.

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As far as Haitink/Mahler 8 is concerned, my personal impression is that Hatink's aversion is not caused by the work itself (though not one of Mahler's strongest architectural achievements indeed IMO), but the fact that he was more or less forced to do the piece for contractual reasons in his first (and only completed!) Mahler-cycle with the Concertgebouw. By then (late 1960s) Haitink was not really "in" massive choral/vocal works. Opera (staged or concertant) e.g. was still terra incognita for him as well. And: 8 is a challenge!

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Is my personal appreciation of music changed by examples like these two?
Hardly, though it does sharpen your mind, and IMO you cannot escape to try to understand what the musician/critic means.
I prefer to listen (and if possible to read the score) for myself.
Ofcourse I am biased. And -as already said before-: we all have our blind spots.

[Auferstehen2]

Hi Roehre,

As usual thanks for your informed input. I'm going to re-hear all his Variations, as I can't quite place the Swiss song and his Op 136 is a mystery to me - I'll check this out.

I've said it before on the old boards (and I was called "a stuffed shirt"), but I'll say it again: nothing beats Wellington's Victory for Beethovenian silliness.

[Roehre]

Hi Roehre,

As usual thanks for your informed input. I'm going to re-hear all his Variations, as I can't quite place the Swiss song and his Op 136 is a mystery to me - I'll check this out.

I've said it before on the old boards (and I was called "a stuffed shirt"), but I'll say it again: nothing beats Wellington's Victory for Beethovenian silliness.

Auferstehen, the variations I meant are those on a Swiss song WoO 64, and you might find it played for harp as well (i.s.o. piano). And re Wellington's Sieg: it IS called a Symphony . I do agree with you regarding its silliness (but I do think as well that one has got to be a great composer to be able to work with the material as Beethoven did)

[salymap]

I see from my old Goodwin hire catalogue that, apart from the well known 9,
Beethoven had published Battle op.91 and the Jenaer in C. I think the op.91 was requested once and that was Wellington's Victory. Has anyone played in or heard the Jenaer?