Mahler symphony no.10 rlpo/petrenko live r3 19:30 thursday 21/03/13

[Simon B]

I cite Twaddle's Law on this one: if it can made more complicated than it really is, it will be.

1. Where does the performer come into it: the 'participation' being compared is purely by listeners, one at home, the other in the hall.
2. "hearing a synthetic representation of some of the sounds" - every audience member only heard "some of the sounds" due to their position in the hall, their hearing ability, etc.

I knew this would happen! Where's MrGongGong when you need him? However:

1. An inadvertent red-herring on my part really - specifically included since some contributors here are/were performers of one sort or another themselves and correspondingly sometimes perceive things through that lens.

2. Every audience member heard and felt (not really separable) the real thing, albeit that slightly different versions of it reached each of them before they then processed it in probably much more distinct ways. Meanwhile, those at home all heard a mere representation, an artifice (and usually a pretty poor one) of the real thing and one to which an unintended additional distorting layer had been added by a combination of the efforts of the engineers and producer plus pot luck.

However, you can dismiss this as being so much sloblock if you like and I might even agree with you. What you won't convince me of is that listening to a concert live, in-the-flesh, isn't fundamentally different from listening (with however much focus) to a relay (however technically brilliant, not that they usually are) of that concert. Not because of ancillary things you cited, but because it's an entirely different act and quality of experience - analagous to the difference between looking at a technically excellent photograph of Beinn Eighe and actually standing at the bottom of it. Those fortunate enough to be more insightful and have more time on their hands might be able to be more coherent on the matter than me!

[jayne lee wilson]

Well you found something that I missed then, Jayne.

I thought the whole thing was ghastly and the orchestra, on the night, not fit for purpose. The best movement was the second - one of the ones that GM did not orchestrate.

HS

That's not strictly true - what Mahler left of Scherzo 1 was "522 bars drafted in orchestral and short score".

As Cooke describes it, "the main thematic sections - the opening scherzo material, the pastoral first trio, the waltz-like second trio - can be played practically as they stand, but elsewhere the scoring is sketched in for strings and brass only, even for first violins and brass..." Cooke comments further about the lack of dynamics and phrasing later on, but concludes that "some of these things can be supplied from the 4-stave sketch, including harmonic textures Mahler had not carried over"
Of course it didn't reach a definitive form, but there was plenty to go on!

The easy refutation to Thropple's point about a "placebo effect" is to recall those paid-for concerts which have certainly not been a happy experience - though not too many with Petrenko conducting.

Like Lord Mersey, I was surprised with the number of mikes visible, wondering what the balance, definition and presence would be like on the other side...

[Alf-Prufrock]

There is a further variable affecting what we hear at home - the quality of the equipment with which we listen to the concert. I remember a post submitted on the old BBC boards in which a contributor slaughtered a performance to which he had listened on a tranny placed in a neighbouring room to that where he was listening. I resolved never to attend to that person's opinions again, though I am now pleased to say I have forgotten who it was.

But I have noticed that highly-trained musicians can listen to performances on the most rubbishy equipment and derive extremely musical judgements from them. Usually they are not attempting value judgements, though.

[Nick Armstrong]

I cite Twaddle's Law on this one: if it can made more complicated than it really is, it will be.

That made me chortle, Twaddlenoggin... errrrr sorry!! Thropplenoggin !

Plus, as a bonus, I think you're right!

[teamsaint]

Just to say, at the paid for experience we are surely more inclined to look for, and indeed find, things to redeem a performance . I know that is my mindset. I go out, and I almost always find something to enjoy, even if the whole is disappointing.
At home the radio just goes off.

[BBMmk2]

The Shosta 4th is quite a monster of a work to perform, whatever the circmstances. I've yet to listen to this but I think genrally these days the RLPO seem to be having a resurgence since Petrenko too over. So this performance, by what I8 have read, just seems a blip?

[Alison]

I've only managed the first two movements of this Mahler 10 so far. I'm waiting for it all to fall apart but have actually been pretty impressed so far. Lots of detail from the back of the orchestra. Some splendid phrasing of inner parts from all sections.

[Thropplenoggin]

That made me chortle, Twaddlenoggin... errrrr sorry!! Thropplenoggin !

Plus, as a bonus, I think you're right!

The hill-side’s dew-pearled;
The lark’s on the wing;
The snail’s on the thorn;
God’s in His heaven—
All’s right with the world! R. Browning

[jayne lee wilson]

...http://guardian.co.uk/music/2013/mar...etrenko-review

...another view, whether of Thursday/Saturday performance - or both - is not clear...

[Nick Armstrong]

The hill-side’s dew-pearled;
The lark’s on the wing;
The snail’s on the thorn;
God’s in His heaven—
All’s right with the world! R. Browning

[jean]

...http://guardian.co.uk/music/2013/mar...etrenko-review

...another view, whether of Thursday/Saturday performance - or both - is not clear...

'Flawed' he says, but he does not go on to indicate any flaws in performance.

I was there on Saturday and I thought it overwhelming. I did not hear any questionable brass, either.

[Alison]

There were flaws on Thursday though Hornspieler is surely way OTT.

A really compelling listen. Perhaps an interpretation in progress to use that rather self evident term. The very opposite of the Andrew Davis motorway driving mode of conducting, so much to ponder and mull over along the way.

An especially forensic way with Scherzo 2 I thought, sheer loveliness not precluded.

I found the flute solo agreeably understated second time around.

If Petrenko would bring this score to London, preferably with the LSO, I'd be first in the queue.

[vibratoforever]

Listening via the I-player I was not over-impressed with the sonics and there were some cracked notes but I was impressed by the interpretation and would like to hear Petrenko in some other Mahler.
I could not understand the comments about Scherzo 1 lacking shape in the Guardian review, nor the doubts about the Purgatorio. I thought it was a brave and characterful reading and "ghastly" is the last adjective I would use to describe it.

[amateur51]

There were flaws on Thursday though Hornspieler is surely way OTT.

A really compelling listen. Perhaps an interpretation in progress to use that rather self evident term. The very opposite of the Andrew Davis motorway driving mode of conducting, so much to ponder and mull over along the way.

An especially forensic way with Scherzo 2 I thought, sheer loveliness not precluded.

I found the flute solo agreeably understated second time around.

If Petrenko would bring this score to London, preferably with the LSO, I'd be first in the queue.

He was marvellous in it with the National Youth Orchestra in 2011, Alison