Two extra Bach Orchestral Suites to be heard tonight (apparently).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Some people always have to go one (or six) better

(The D major Suite provided the perfect accompaniment to this evening's return to Château Caliban, and so I'm not looking any equines in the mouth

Nor, indeed, "putting", we hope!

[Nick Armstrong]

Nor, indeed, "putting", we hope!

Oh very good

[Roehre]

No misprint. Cambridge Baroque Camerata states that Brandenburg No 7 (sic) is scholarly speculation, in an arrangement by Duncan Druce, of the 3rd sonata for viol and obbligato harpsichord by J S Bach.

Something to think about: we know that many works (chamber, orchestral, choral [cantatas]) are musically related as either source or a derivation of other pieces.
If we take the contemporary witnesses and obituaries literally -and there aren't many reasons no to- , then we have to accept the fact that the 200 odd cantatas we've got of Bach's hand are not more than approximately 40 to 50 % of what he has composed. These works were better preserved for posteritiy than his chamber and orchestral works (I do mean the pieces for more than one player, so without the harpsichord and organ music or the violin or cello solo pieces, as these were relatively often copied or even printed). We therefore have to accept that more than half of Bach's orchestral output has disappeared.
We know of orchestral works which were performed before the (assumed) earliest of the "ouvertures" or Brandenburgs -not taking in account that the Brandenburgs exist(ed) in earlier versions, sometimes as part of a Cantata. The same applies to his concertos for other instruments than violin or harpsichord.

My personal estimate is that approximately 10 orchestral works similar to either the Brandenburgs or the orchestral suites must have existed, and double or even triple this number likely or probably, most from his pre-Leipzig years.
Many of these were recycled, even the now known orchestral suites haven't escaped that.

Though I think someone mixed up the 4 suites with the 6 Brandenburgs, a suite no.5, 6, 7 still belongs to the possibillities of emerging one day.....

[Hautboiste]

My memory of playing the 3rd suite is arguing with the conductor when he expected me to keep up with the violins in the 1st movement. I pointed out rather acidly that he could keep breathing while he played his violin and the only real place where I could breathe was on page 2 and did he really want me keeling over. Happy days :)

[Flosshilde]

Something to think about ... I think someone mixed up the 4 suites with the 6 Brandenburgs, a suite no.5, 6, 7 still belongs to the possibillities of emerging one day.....

Yes, but - any reconstruction surely must be imaginary, ie this is what Bach might have written, unless he helpfully left notes on his scores to say which parts came from, or were re-used in, Brandenburg no.7, etc.

And calling a concerto 'Brandenburg no 7' would be a misnomer anyway - the six concertos were called that because they were presented to the Margrave of Brandenburg-Schwedt as a set. Is there any evidence that the set originally consisted of 7 or more concertos?

[Roehre]

Yes, but - any reconstruction surely must be imaginary, ie this is what Bach might have written, unless he helpfully left notes on his scores to say which parts came from, or were re-used in, Brandenburg no.7, etc.

And calling a concerto 'Brandenburg no 7' would be a misnomer anyway - the six concertos were called that because they were presented to the Margrave of Brandenburg-Schwedt as a set. Is there any evidence that the set originally consisted of 7 or more concertos?

Brandenburg 7 never existed, as the set of six concertos was conceived as such - as e.g. is defined by the very cerebral orchestration of the concertos, from "concerto per multi stromenti" à la Vivaldi (no.1), to "clavichord-concerto" (no.5) or "consort"-like music (no.6).

There is some evidence that Bach composed other, similar works, one e.g. a (likely 3 mvt) concerto of which the first two movements now form part of the Easter oratorio as orchestral introductions. These however don't fit within the time frame of the conception and realisation of the Brandenburgs, but do for other periods in which Bach was mainly composing instrumental works.

The reconstruction of the original wind-soloists of what have survived as violin or harpsichord concertos is not too difficult, as Bach's transcriptions of the lost original into the surviving recycled parts contain mistakes -most, but not all, corrected by the composer himself- pointing at the range of the original solo instruments.

[Bryn]

Only slightly OT, now spinning here are the reconstructions of the 'original' versions of Suites 2 (with oboe rather than flute), 3 & 4 (Ensemble Sonnarie, Monica Huggett).