How accurate is the Proms Archive?

[joseph green]

I recently acquired a tape of the Mahler 8 which started the 1971 season, and then found that although the BBC online Proms Archive gives one cast, the sainted Cormac Rigby announces the singers at the beginning of the concert and there are at least three substitutions. George Shirley, and John Shirley-Quirk were not there, and John Mitchinson and Forbes Robinson were. So then I looked at the 1971 Proms Prospectus and the cast was as on the website - so it looks as if they have just copied the annual prospectus and not allowed for changes post publication. Is this an isolated oversight, or is it a regular feature? Is it reliable?

[Suffolkcoastal]

There are some errors here and there including works listed but not played. Many of these were highlighted on the R3 MBs last year when the archive first appeared.

[Chris Newman]

Hi Giuseppe,
I cannot comment on accuracy of Proms Archive or of what Cormac Rigby said (bless his cotton socks) but I have the programme in front of me. I am pretty sure that what follows will be accurate as I always slid amendment slips of cast changes between the staples for future reference. There were none from the list below:

BBC SO (Bela Dekany leader)
Conductor Colin Davis.

Magna Peccatrix and First Sop Heather Harper
Una Poenitentium and Second Sop Elizabth Robson
Mater Gloriosa Elisabeth Robson
Mulier Samaritana and First Alto Norma Procter
Maria Aegyptiaca and Second Alto Elizabeth Bainbridge
Doctor Marianus and Tenor George Shirley
Pater Ecstaticus abd Baritone John Shirley-Quirk
Pater Profundus and Bass Raimund Herincx

BBC Chorus, BBC Choral Soc, London Phil Choir, New Philharmonia Choir and Wandsworth School Boys' Choir.

I hope that is of help,
bws
Chris.

[Mary Chambers]

I couldn't find the Jochum performance that Chris Newman mentioned on the St John Passion thread, but I didn't know whether it was the Archive, my searching or you, Chris, that was inaccurate!

[Chris Newman]

I couldn't find the Jochum performance that Chris Newman mentioned on the St John Passion thread, but I didn't know whether it was the Archive, my searching or you, Chris, that was inaccurate!

Mary, You are absolutely correct. My memory really let me down there. My apologies for building up people's hopes with the thought of another Jochum St John lurking in the archives. Oh! grovel! Beat me with your rhythm stick! Sob! Blush!

Still, it does me good to climb the stairs to check these details in my loft.

I was thinking of Tuesday 1st of September1971 but, I know not how, I had the composer and the work completely wrong. It was so memorable I....dammit! It was Beethoven's Missa Solemnis

I do feel very stupid.

Though I think I was right with the Mahler 8.

[mercia]

7 soloists in Mahler 8 or is that two different Robsons?

[David Underdown]

It's bound to be somewhat inaccurate due to the way it's compiled, but it's probably about as accurate as we can get. You could try newspaper archives (Guardian and Times are online) to see if there were reviews.

[subcontrabass]

I recently acquired a tape of the Mahler 8 which started the 1971 season, and then found that although the BBC online Proms Archive gives one cast, the sainted Cormac Rigby announces the singers at the beginning of the concert and there are at least three substitutions. George Shirley, and John Shirley-Quirk were not there, and John Mitchinson and Forbes Robinson were. So then I looked at the 1971 Proms Prospectus and the cast was as on the website - so it looks as if they have just copied the annual prospectus and not allowed for changes post publication. Is this an isolated oversight, or is it a regular feature? Is it reliable?

A review of the performance written by Edward Greenfield in The Guardian (July 24th 1971) makes explicit mention of George Shirley and John Shirley-Quirk taking part.

[joseph green]

Very, very odd. I have listened again to the recording, and Rigby definitely announces Mitchinson, Forbes Robinson, Helen Watts and Anne Pashley as singers. Maybe the communion wine was flowing freely that night.....

[subcontrabass]

Very, very odd. I have listened again to the recording, and Rigby definitely announces Mitchinson, Forbes Robinson, Helen Watts and Anne Pashley as singers. Maybe the communion wine was flowing freely that night.....

With such a radically different team of soloists perhaps it was a different performance.

[Chris Newman]

7 soloists in Mahler 8 or is that two different Robsons?

On the frontispiece of the 1971 Prom programme names Elizabeth Robson as Soprano 2. Then in the "libretto" and notes at the beginning of Part 2 she is named as both Una Poenitentium and Mater Gloriosa. The symphony was done earlier that year (21st of April) at the RAH with Raphael Frubeck de Burgos and New Philharmonia and Dusseldorf forces. He used seven soloists including John Mitchinson. There are of course eight characters in Part Two. Frubeck de Burgos appears to have doubled the Penitent and Mater Gloriosa using Angeles Gulin with April Cantelo as the penitent whilst Davis has alotted the parts as I described earlier. Some conductors use eight when Mater Gloriosa appears from nowhere in the gallery, hiding in the chorus or even amongst the organ pipes (I made that last one up).

A diversion but I really can remember the Frubeck de Burgos performance. The Davis is a vaguer memory. It was on a different level except for Heather Harper who was as thrilling live in Part One as she is on Solti's recording.

[joseph green]

How accurate is the Proms Archive?

No, thought of that one, but the concert is clearly a Prom and Rigby talks about the Proms audience helping the orchestra to tune... I dont think Colin Davis ever conducted another performance of Mahler 8 at the Proms, and the choirs taking part are exactly the same

[Petrushka]

Mystery solved!! The recording you have is the opening night of the 1972 Proms which took place on July 28.

The details are as per your details and as on the Proms Archive which took me less than 30 seconds to find!!!

[joseph green]

Brilliant - thank you. It never occurred to me that Davis conducted Mahler 8 in two successive seasons - just one correction - July 28 was not the first night!

[mercia]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/archive/search/performance_find.shtml?work_id=1468&all=1&tab=search&sub_tab=composer&all=1