Simon rattle/oae/mozart 39/40/41/ rfh 19:00hrs 29/01/13 - note start time!

[Tony Halstead]

What a truly remarkable concert - a great EVENT, musically and technically on the highest level. Wonderful sound balancing on R3 HDs too.
I'll be lucky to hear a better concert this year, and in the middle of my own personal Lutoslawski season, Rattle and the OAE made these well-known masterpieces sound as fresh and compelling as the works of that Polish Original Master....

Sadly I am not as captivated as you clearly were....
To my ears, the sound balancing was in at least one respect 'untruthful' inasmuchas one would never, ever, hear the woodwinds so clearly in a concert hall. No doubt they were 'spot-miked' tonight.

Sir Simon Rattle's 'interpretations' of these 3 symphonies were 'exactly that' - interpretations that were exciting and eminently 'listenable to' but in no way AUTHENTIC.
His skilful, artful use of rubato especially in Symphonies 40 and 41 was utterly convincing and charming, but couldn't possibly have been achieved during Mozart's lifetime by the 'dual leadership' of 1st violin and keyboard continuo player.

[jayne lee wilson]

All points well taken, WH - we're describing the same thing from different angles, and it would be useful to have a report from anyone in the hall. But I felt that Rattle was probably emphasising the winds in a "wind serenade" effect that Mozart often creates (e.g. Piano Concerto No.22 slow movement), especially in No.39's andante tonight, so perhaps the producer was keen to bring that out. I do like this kind of a balance (winds to the fore) in classical rep., (the Cristofori players have done great things with it) and I've heard Rattle do similar things with a reduced-size Berlin Phil.

I see your concerns about "authenticity" (a problematic concept, I guess) but I found that combination - of the light, dry and transparent orchestral timbre married to Rattle's expressively moulded phrasing, dramatic dynamics and vivid characterisation of mood, made for a fresh and compelling set of readings.
This concert was something of a three-act music drama, "opera without theatre" (as Dohnanyi said of Mahler). What a shock the darkly intense No.40 was tonight, after the springlike bounce and breeziness of No.39. I've never heard such a bitterly angry G minor! - But once again, with marvellous delicacy and intimacy in the andante. Then the OAE seemed to gain in power and resonance through a splendidly festive Jupiter. A triumphant last act!

(I kept thinking of this as a programme..."Life was so easy (39). Suddenly hatred broke out - a grave situation was created (40). But life goes on (41)".
With apologies to a later Viennese master...)

But I DO see the problem, WH - there are so many interpretative choices available to performers now, do you attempt a blend as Rattle sometimes does, or keep the approaches separate? For me tonight, Rattle succeeded in the tricky business of creative reinterpretation - giving us a wonderful night, and much to talk about!

(Incidentally - in the 1st movement of No.40, just after the recap. of the 1st subject, there's a startling new development on the bridging ideas - a sort of contrapuntal extension - before the music settles again and the 2nd subject returns in the minor. Rattle made this very climactic, as I feel it should be; but can anyone (fhg...?) explain just why it sounds so striking? The music seems almost to be laid bare...)

[Hornspieler]

Messages #16 and #17:
Two vastly different approaches to this concert – one seeking exoteric authenticity and the other seeking to share esoteric pleasures.

To me, a Racket is an unpleasant noise and Viol (onomatopoeically) sounds like a synonym for “awful”.
So I leave the matter of authenticity to waldhorn - someone who knows what he is talking about

Jayne’s assessment of a programmatic drama seems very fanciful. I cannot detect a trace of anger or hatred in Nº 40 – to me it is a charming and gentle work. “Darkly intense”? Clear as daylight for me.
I would be delighted to see a contribution from the learned fhg, but why should we need anyone to tell us whether or not we should have enjoyed something?

Well, I enjoyed the whole concert; without looking for truth or motivation and I shall take the works one by one:

Symphony Nº 39 in E flat
A brisk start, slightly spoiled for me by the harsh sound of those hard drumsticks (authentic, no doubt, but the problem did not re-occur during the remainder of the concert).
A nice gentle slow movement, handled carefully throughout.
The Minuet started too fast for my liking but it settled down for the trio and did not quite return to its original opening speed.
A spirited and lively Finale.

Symphony Nº 40 in G minor
A slightly untidy start to an otherwise pleasing tempo
I felt that the slow movement could have been a little more stately
The exuberance of the third movement was well portrayed and with smooth playing in the trio
The Finale seemed to start in a rush, but soon settled down.

Symphony Nº 41 in C **
A no-nonsense, firm opening movement.
The slow movement gently handled
A brisk and business-like Minuet and Trio
A really exciting Allegro Vivace for the Finale

I liked the feeling of finality that Simon Rattle imposed at the conclusion of each movement. With all those final repeated sections - not always observed by many conductors, it reassurred the audience (and those of us at home with fingers poised over our recording equipment) that we could be sure that we would not be caught unawares.

I gained a lot more from this concert than I expected. I hope that those who missed it will take their chances with the iPlayer.

Hornspieler

** I have a couple of nice anecdotes about this symphony for Caliban to include in his monster book of unlikely truths, but I will save them until others have had their say.

[salymap]

I've only listened to no 39 so far. Surely the timps at the beginning had the wrong sticks or was over miked. The timpani dominated my headphone listening but I enjoyed the last two movements most. I would never have recognised the OAE, it sounded as though they had strings 87654 at least to me, but again it could have been the engineers at work. The wind/brass were drowned by the strings most of the time.
Shall listen when I can as we poor women have to get our own meals.


The figures are string parts, not players.

[jayne lee wilson]

If freedom of speech is the freedom to offend and be offended, we must all salute Mr. Hornspieler for the sheer consistency with which he upholds these principles.
He is SUCH an example to us all.

(I would suggest, however, that he consult the learned fhg or the expert Waldhorn, to deepen his understanding of the role of G minor in the works of Mozart. He may be surprised, if not a little humbled, by the discoveries that lie ahead..)

[Hornspieler]

If freedom of speech is the freedom to offend and be offended, we must all salute Mr. Hornspieler for the sheer consistency with which he upholds these principles.
He is SUCH an example to us all.

(I would suggest, however, that he consult the learned fhg or the expert Waldhorn, to deepen his understanding of the role of G minor in the works of Mozart. He may be surprised, if not a little humbled, by the discoveries that lie ahead..)

I really cannot see any reason why you should take offence at my saying that I disagree with your assessment that the G minor symphony represents hate, Jayne. I have no quibble with the learned fhg and my respect for waldhorn's knowledge in all matters musical (and practical) is unbounding.

Indeed, it was waldhorn himself who pointed out on the other paralell thread promoting this concert that G is a very troublesome key for horn players - and this is whether playing in G minor or G major (to enable the player to play the minor third in G minor on the natural horn, as is used by the OAE players, Mozart would either have specified two pairs of horns - one pair pitched in G and the other pair in B flat, as in the case of K183) or required the 1st horn to use a B flat crook and the 2nd horn a G crook, in order to cover all the required notes of the minor triad (with the benefit of making a few additional harmonics available on the valveless horns in use at the time of writing).
Remember, this is a discussion forum and I think that my assessment of the OAE concert was both fair and favourable to Simon Rattle and the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment.

Nothing more to say, really, except that I look forward to reading your views on tonight's Poulenc/Mozart concert in due time.

HS

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

(Incidentally - in the 1st movement of No.40, just after the recap. of the 1st subject, there's a startling new development on the bridging ideas - a sort of contrapuntal extension - before the music settles again and the 2nd subject returns in the minor. Rattle made this very climactic, as I feel it should be; but can anyone (fhg...?) explain just why it sounds so striking? The music seems almost to be laid bare...)

I think it's partly to do with what Mozart has led us to expect - in the Expo, the Transition section is quite short (16 bars including the silence with which it ends) and is largely built on straightforward harmonies (primary triads in Bb major, with a secondary modulation to F major) with only one ambiguous diminished seventh chord to spice up the proceedings. We hear this twice (if the conductor is sensible and doesn't think that Mozart put the repeat marks in because he wanted to wipe some ink off his pen!) so this is what we expect in the Recap. What he gives us instead is over twice as long, Tonally more unstable and texturally more complex.

It begins hopefully enough with a shift to Eb major (which would be really pleasing for optimists as it turns the Eb dissonance of the opening tune into a tonal centre - no such luck!) but before this is allowed to register, the Music lurches towards f minor - the point at which the lower strings take over the motif. Diminished triads abound, throwing away the sense of secure movement we felt in the Expo: these are much more turbulent waters. All the time the Music sinks downwards, defying the best attempts of the rising arpeggios of the motif. Suspensions appear between the Flute and 1st Oboe (starting with a stark C / Db clash: the semitone between the very first two notes of the opening melody become a single wail of despair); the sense of where the strong beat appears becomes confused as the 1st violins echo the lower strings in close canonic writing - and we end up, after all this turmoil, back where we started; in G minor. The major triads of the Expo transition are replaced by grimly resolute minors (G, C, D) before an A7 takes the Music to an uncertain rest on the Dominant seventh of the Tonic. (The Flute reaches the highest note played in the work at this point - a lonely, desperate sound when played on the instrument Mozart knew; shriller, more piercing on a modern instrument - good players and sensitive conductors will realize the significance of this moment, which registers almost subconsciously in the listener.)

After this, a repeat of the Second Group material in the Tonic Major would seem glib, so the Tonic minor is kept and a sense of glowering rage as the Bb major melody of the Second Group simmers now in G minor.

[teamsaint]

After some other comments on this thread, I had a really long hard listen to #40 today. The things that had been raised led to a really great listening experience for me.

Ferney's fascinating description of the mvt 1 recap above left me wanting to see for myself how it works...I need more time....but this is at least some kind of help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzhriupAzmU

Its fun to follow for us novices, if nothing else!

Watching youtube videos which show the score is my new hobby !! Nobody told me about this before .Genius.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I do not mean, by the way, to tell others how/why they should enjoy this magnificent Music: my post is a wordy simplification of the sounds Mozart creates in this magnificent work, and how I respond to these sounds. A lot depends on the acoustic of the hall and the balance, phrasing and tempo that the performers decide upon - it can indeed sound "charming" and "light as air". But I prefer those performances that address the drama of the work, that reveals its tragic majesty.

In his earlier g minor Symphony, the Second group in the Recap is also restated in the Tonic minor - but there isn't this sense of (words fail me) "betrayal"/despair that the lurch back to the tonic minor creates in the later, greater work: the set up for a joyful repeat of the second group in Bb major that Mozart suggests at the start of the reTransition (bars 191-194) is so ruthlessly rejected that it takes the whole sense that I can fathom from these sounds to a completely different level of pathos and profundity.

[EdgeleyRob]

After some other comments on this thread, I had a really long hard listen to #40 today. The things that had been raised led to a really great listening experience for me.

Ferney's fascinating description of the mvt 1 recap above left me wanting to see for myself how it works...I need more time....but this is at least some kind of help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzhriupAzmU

Its fun to follow for us novices, if nothing else!

Watching youtube videos which show the score is my new hobby !! Nobody told me about this before .Genius.

If only I could read music and follow a score.
Some great posts on here btw,mine not included.

[jayne lee wilson]

Wonderful comment-and-analysis fhg, thanks...

Remember Leonard Bernstein, in The Unanswered Question? He highlighted this very passage in Mozart's 40th to his audience, commenting as it played. I think he too felt it as the true climax of the movement.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Remember Leonard Bernstein, in The Unanswered Question? He highlighted this very passage in Mozart's 40th to his audience, commenting as it played. I think he too felt it as the true climax of the movement.

Yes; those lectures were a vital part of my whole attitude to Music analysis (which is only another way of saying "my whole attitude to listening to Music") - and Lennie's DG (V-I! ) recording with the VPO of K440 is magnificent. The fact that it takes so long and goes through such Tonal possibilities only to end up in the same place heightens the sense of despair for me.

And, Edgy, Music Theory/Analysis only transcribes into words and symbols the sounds the listener hears - the effect these sounds have on listeners is personal and much more important than the shorthand convenient for analyses. The sense of shifting tonality, the dissonances, the dynamics and register of the instruments are all things clearly (if not necessarily consciously) heard by every listener: they don't need to "know" (in as many words) that "there is a tritone leap between the Ab major chord in bar 206 and the D minor chord in the next bar" - the wrench is felt/experienced as a sonic event. Anyone can enjoy Twelfth Night or be disturbed by King Lear regardless of their ability to read and follow early 17th Century English - and, just as no one watches a play thinking about the image of the text on the page, so I don't "see" a score when I listen to a performance. For the listener it's the thrill of the performance, the sonic experience that matters - being able to identify this chord or or structural point, or that rhythm or key change only makes discussion about the works more accurate and awareness of the composers' genius more acute.

[jayne lee wilson]

Here's Martin Kettle's review of the concert. Striking quote from Britten.

http://guardian.co.uk/music/2013/jan/30/orchestra-age-of-enlightenment-simon-rattle

[cloughie]

Here's Martin Kettle's review of the concert. Striking quote from Britten.

http://guardian.co.uk/music/2013/jan...t-simon-rattle

I thought the performances of all three excellent, the opening og No39 reminded me of the LCP Norrington - not a Norrington fan overall but I've long liked that! On a lighter note Valdo de Los Rios obviously did not follow Britten's idea of No40!

[Petrushka]

FHG Message 22: Absolutely brilliant stuff! This is why I joined the Forum; not the silly spats between ........ and ....... (fill in the blanks yourselves). I can't profess to understand it all, having only a rudimentary knowledge but it is this sort of post that has you scurrying back to the music to listen with fresh ears. Many thanks!

I remember Bernstein's Norton lectures with great affection as they did exactly the same thing and introduced me to music I did not then know.