Michael Tilson Thomas: Opinions?

[Nick Armstrong]

Glad we've got that straight....

BOOM BOOM!!

[Mr Pee]

I enter this thread with great trepidation... but...

It must be time for new specs then! Though there may, as often, be weirdness with delay between sound and vision on that YT clip which make it look more disconcerting.

The position of the tick of the beat is mostly clear, but I certainly can't tell which beat is which at times. Almost the whole movement is in 4/4 but there are numerous instances of what look very much like upbeats that aren't on 4, there are stretches where the best guess is he did a bar of 5 then one of 3 etc... Then there are stretches of the old favourite of generic sawing from side-to-side indicating nothing useful...

To be fair, everyone involved will know that this movement essentially plays itself and the chap flailing about on the podium is just there for show apart from at a few points of inflection. MTT does, knowingly no doubt, do something useful at one of the beartraps - the fast on-off canon between brass and cymbals in bars 266-268. Note the SFSO cymbal player very visibily counting like &$*% at that point - and MTT giving a very clear 4 with ticks you could slice cheese with.

There is a definite delay between sound and vision on that clip which doesn't help, and there may be occasions when MTT doesn't stick to the "How to beat 4 in a bar" template than one learns in Conducting for beginners, but there are not many top conductors who do- look at Kleiber and Gergiev to name but two; but MTT at all times gives a perfectly clear pulse,(unlike Kleiber and Gergiev!) as well as extremely precise cueing of instruments and sections. An orchestra of the SFSO's quality does not need a downbeat on every bar in Tchaik 4. A conductor can sacrifice that at times in order to direct the phrasing and musicality of the piece- Rattle often does this. On the other hand, when MTT conducts, say Ives or Copland- both of which I have seen him do on Sky Arts- the conducting is much more focused on the rythmic complexities of the piece, as such music demands.

That's why I cannot understand Hornspeiler's earlier post. I have played under numerous conductors, of varying levels of competence, and watched many others, and MTT is much clearer and more precise than most.

[Simon B]

There is a definite delay between sound and vision on that clip which doesn't help, and there may be occasions when MTT doesn't stick to the "How to beat 4 in a bar" template than one learns in Conducting for beginners, but there are not many top conductors who do- look at Kleiber and Gergiev to name but two; but MTT at all times gives a perfectly clear pulse,(unlike Kleiber and Gergiev!) as well as extremely precise cueing of instruments and sections. An orchestra of the SFSO's quality does not need a downbeat on every bar in Tchaik 4. A conductor can sacrifice that at times in order to direct the phrasing and musicality of the piece. On the other hand, when he conducts, say Ives or Copland- both of which I have seen MTT do on Sky Arts- the conducting is much more focused on the rythmic complexities of the piece, as such music demands.

That's why I cannot understand Hornspeiler's earlier post. I have played under numerous conductors, of varying levels of competence, and watched many others, and MTT is much clearer and more precise than most.

Agreed re down-left-right-up_left really not being necessary or appropriate for the likes of the SFSO. Some conductors of international repute are nevertheless crystal clear (Haitink and Petrenko come to mind) which almost always seems to result in a greater degree of confidence and rhythmic clarity/uniformity compared with when vaguer conductors are flapping around at the front. Indeed, this tendency is one of the things that confirms to me that even the finest orchestras often are actually taking some notice of the carver during concerts whatever some might say!

And also agreed re Tchaik 4 IV - essentially it plays itself, once it's started (particularly if at a fair lick) there's neither time nor point in watching for downbeats for the most part... It is a good one for conductors to thrash around to though, enjoying the racket over which they have the illusion of control .

[Suffolkcoastal]

He's pretty good in the American repertoire, however the range of American repertoire he performs is quite narrow, and being such a high profile conductor he could and should do far more for the composers of his home country. A pity he tries to follow Bernstein and wallows in Mahler for a lot of the time. The other things I've heard him conduct seem to be competent although they don't stand out.

[Tony Halstead]

There is a definite delay between sound and vision on that clip which doesn't help, and there may be occasions when MTT doesn't stick to the "How to beat 4 in a bar" template than one learns in Conducting for beginners, but there are not many top conductors who do- look at Kleiber and Gergiev to name but two; but MTT at all times gives a perfectly clear pulse,(unlike Kleiber and Gergiev!) as well as extremely precise cueing of instruments and sections. An orchestra of the SFSO's quality does not need a downbeat on every bar in Tchaik 4. A conductor can sacrifice that at times in order to direct the phrasing and musicality of the piece- Rattle often does this. On the other hand, when MTT conducts, say Ives or Copland- both of which I have seen him do on Sky Arts- the conducting is much more focused on the rythmic complexities of the piece, as such music demands.

That's why I cannot understand Hornspeiler's earlier post. I have played under numerous conductors, of varying levels of competence, and watched many others, and MTT is much clearer and more precise than most.

It's totally, blindingly obvious to me that the YouTube Tchaik 4 clip has an absurd lack of synchronisation between the music's 'audio and visual' ( but only on the shots of MTT - the shots of the players seem to be OK). It is true that the 'visual' is about 1 beat ahead of the audio so that is why, of course, MTT seems to be giving downbeats on the 4th beat of each bar rather than the 1st beat!

I have played for MTT many times, 1stly in the LSO and later in the ECO, where his CBS recorded Beethoven Symphony cycle was a 'breath of fresh air' to the invariably staid and conservative 'ECO style' of the 1970s/ 1980s.
It was a great pity that - maybe for contractual rather than musical reasons - the 'Eroica' recording was made not with the ECO but with the USA 'Orchestra of St Lukes'.
My most recent encounter with MTT was at London's Barbican Hall in May 2012, not as a player but as a listener to a lovely Mahler 4th Symphony that he did with the LSO.

[amateur51]

It's totally, blindingly obvious to me that the YouTube Tchaik 4 clip has an absurd lack of synchronisation between the music's 'audio and visual' ( but only on the shots of MTT - the shots of the players seem to be OK). It is true that the 'visual' is about 1 beat ahead of the audio so that is why, of course, MTT seems to be giving downbeats on the 4th beat of each bar rather than the 1st beat!

I have played for MTT many times, 1stly in the LSO and later in the ECO, where his CBS recorded Beethoven Symphony cycle was a 'breath of fresh air' to the invariably staid and conservative 'ECO style' of the 1970s/ 1980s.
It was a great pity that - maybe for contractual rather than musical reasons - the 'Eroica' recording was made not with the ECO but with the USA 'Orchestra of St Lukes'.
My most recent encounter with MTT was at London's Barbican Hall in May 2012, not as a player but as a listener to a lovely Mahler 4th Symphony that he did with the LSO.

Many thanks for an insider's view waldhorn

[Hornspieler]

It's totally, blindingly obvious to me that the YouTube Tchaik 4 clip has an absurd lack of synchronisation between the music's 'audio and visual' ( but only on the shots of MTT - the shots of the players seem to be OK). It is true that the 'visual' is about 1 beat ahead of the audio so that is why, of course, MTT seems to be giving downbeats on the 4th beat of each bar rather than the 1st beat!

I have played for MTT many times, 1stly in the LSO and later in the ECO, where his CBS recorded Beethoven Symphony cycle was a 'breath of fresh air' to the invariably staid and conservative 'ECO style' of the 1970s/ 1980s.
It was a great pity that - maybe for contractual rather than musical reasons - the 'Eroica' recording was made not with the ECO but with the USA 'Orchestra of St Lukes'.
My most recent encounter with MTT was at London's Barbican Hall in May 2012, not as a player but as a listener to a lovely Mahler 4th Symphony that he did with the LSO.

Bravo, Mr waldhorn and good morning.

In my message #18 on this thread, I mentioned that the conductor in performance relinquishes his role as an orchestra's trainer and becomes the audience's presenter and showman.

A few nights ago, I watched MTT conducting the San Francisco players in a performance of Berlioz' Fantastic Symphony.

An extremely difficult work (those poor harpists) and the orchestra's performance was the best that I have ever heard. The groundwork had been set and MTT was at liberty to be "all over the place" because he was now performing for his audience.

If a conductor's arm suddenly shoots out towards the 1st trumpet or the timpanist, why does he do that - the player would come in anyway?

No. It is to draw the attention of the audience to look at what is coming next - just as he might turn towards the cellos and basses and conduct them personally to direct the eyes of the "customers" there.

Nobody achieves the success of such as Michael Tilson Thomas without having more than ordinary expertise - and the San Francisco Orchestra would not engage him if he was not an asset to that organisation.

There seems to be a lot of silly squabbling on this thread. I hope for better things when the Live in Concert series really gets under way on Radio 3.

HS

[Beef Oven]

There seems to be a lot of silly squabbling on this thread. I hope for better things.........

HS

Which is exactly what the OP intended.

.

[amateur51]

Which is exactly what the OP intended.

.

Exactly Beefy!

[Mr Pee]

Bravo, Mr waldhorn and good morning.

In my message #18 on this thread, I mentioned that the conductor in performance relinquishes his role as an orchestra's trainer and becomes the audience's presenter and showman.

A few nights ago, I watched MTT conducting the San Francisco players in a performance of Berlioz' Fantastic Symphony.

An extremely difficult work (those poor harpists) and the orchestra's performance was the best that I have ever heard. The groundwork had been set and MTT was at liberty to be "all over the place" because he was now performing for his audience.

If a conductor's arm suddenly shoots out towards the 1st trumpet or the timpanist, why does he do that - the player would come in anyway?

No. It is to draw the attention of the audience to look at what is coming next - just as he might turn towards the cellos and basses and conduct them personally to direct the eyes of the "customers" there.

Nobody achieves the success of such as Michael Tilson Thomas without having more than ordinary expertise - and the San Francisco Orchestra would not engage him if he was not an asset to that organisation.

There seems to be a lot of silly squabbling on this thread. I hope for better things when the Live in Concert series really gets under way on Radio 3.

HS

So when you said he was

all over the shop

and that it would be chaos if the orchestra actually followed him, you meant he was all over the shop on purpose, in order to give a show to the audience? The fact is, he is not all over the shop, whether he's giving a show or not. Do you not agree that his conducting is extremely clear and precise? I really would like to know, because I have always looked on MTT as being the very model of clarity.

[Hornspieler]

So when you said he was and that it would be chaos if the orchestra actually followed him, you meant he was all over the shop on purpose, in order to give a show to the audience? The fact is, he is not all over the shop, whether he's giving a show or not. Do you not agree that his conducting is extremely clear and precise? I really would like to know, because I have always looked on MTT as being the very model of clarity.

"All over the shop" or "All over the place" Different words - same meaning.

But the orchestra did not attempt to follow his beat and gave a fine performance; which proves my point, made twice now, that he was performing for the audience and not for orchestra who already knew, from his rehearsals, how he wanted them to play.

I have nothing more to say on this topic. MTT is a very good conductor - or would it be better to describe him as a Musical Director?

HS

[richardfinegold]

I've seen him conduct several times. I didn't think that he was particularly flamboyant, at least to the point of being distracting.
His Mahler has been criticized on this thread quite unfairly, IMO. I'd put his cycle up with any, and the sonics are outstanding.

[Mr Pee]

I've seen him conduct several times. I didn't think that he was particularly flamboyant, at least to the point of being distracting.
His Mahler has been criticized on this thread quite unfairly, IMO. I'd put his cycle up with any, and the sonics are outstanding.

[Mandryka]

Which is exactly what the OP intended.

.

Another piece of psychotic omniscience from Amy's little backpocket army.

Wonder what (s)he pays you?

[Nick Armstrong]

Amy's little backpocket army.

What does that mean, and who is Amy?