Michael Tilson Thomas: Opinions?

[makropulos]

I own his recording of Debussy's San Sebastien with the LSO and Leslie Caron as narrator and it's OK, though it's not work I care to return to very often.

I also have an LSO Heldenleben by him: also OK, but nothing to get excited about

I don't listen to much American repertoire but will take Caliban's word for it that he's on comfortable ground there.

And I don't doubt that he's a serious musician: I just didn't/don't care for his podium manner, which I found unnecessarily distracting. Bernstein could be showy and flamboyant, too, but he was a natural vulgarian and so could brazen it out.

Bernstein "a natural vulgarian" - Could you explain what you mean by that?

The fact you don't like Le Martyre de Saint-S is hardly MTT's fault. That's a good record. Agreed, the Heldenleben disc is nothing remarkable.

But it's a relief that you don't doubt his seriousness as a musician. You might enjoy his piano playing with the Boston Chamber Soloists in the Debussy Violin and Cello Sonatas.

[jayne lee wilson]

The Debussy disc of Le Martyre is arguably the only recording - certainly in stereo - to present that strange masterpiece in its full glory. MTT is the only conductor to match Inghelbrecht here and the sensitive narration (Leslie Caron), with truly glorious sound, makes it very special.

Other discs I especially like from MTT are Reich's The Desert Music, and Feldman's Coptic Light. He's pretty good in Ives and Stravinsky too.

[Hornspieler]

The Debussy disc of Le Martyre is arguably the only recording - certainly in stereo - to present that strange masterpiece in its full glory. MTT is the only conductor to match Inghelbrecht here and the sensitive narration (Leslie Caron), with truly glorious sound, makes it very special.

Other discs I especially like from MTT are Reich's The Desert Music, and Feldman's Coptic Light. He's pretty good in Ives and Stravinsky too.

It is very dangerous to judge a conductor's ability by listening to a recording. How many retakes were there? Who made the final decisions?

I personally, like most players, judge a conductor's ability by his performance in rehearsals. !s he clear in what he wants? Does he single out those parts of a work which require special attention? Does he use all the rehearsal time whether he needs it or not? Does he trust his orchestra and leave them something in reserve for the concert.

I rememberl the young Pierino Gamba, who used to keep saying in rehearsal "Geev all! Geev all!"
Finally, our exasperated (and exhausted) 1st trumpet stood up. "Mr Gamba. You can have it now, or you can have it tonight. Which do you want?"

A conductor has to be a presenter and a showman. His responsibilty on the night is to his audience (the people who pay his and the orchestra's fees)

I have watched MTT on Sky Arts TV several times recently. Yes, he is all over the shop. If the orchestra attempted to follow him, it would be chaos, but their performance was magnificent.

I recall the words of the distinguished Czech teacher Frantisec Szolc after we played Schubert's 9th in BRNO:

"I think the orchestra played very good the symphony and the conductor (Rudolf Schwarz) gave the performance his blessing."

Good morning all. I'm going to watch some cricket.

HS

[Nick Armstrong]

Yes, he is all over the shop. If the orchestra attempted to follow him, it would be chaos, but their performance was magnificent.

Great stuff, HS The anecdotes made me smile.

I personally, like most players, judge a conductor's ability by his performance in rehearsals.

I'm sure you're right, but that's awkward for most of us... We can't judge his ability, as we can't get to the rehearsals...

[Mandryka]

Bernstein "a natural vulgarian" - Could you explain what you mean by that?

In watching Bernstein conduct, you do get a sense not only of a man giving a performance, but of a man who wishes to be seen to be giving a performance. - wanting the spectator to be aware of him and his pivotal role in creating the sounds that the spectator is hearing. Quite a few European conductors tend toward the self-effacing, on the podium at least, but Bernstein was the reverse of that and people both loved and hated him for it - 'vulgar' was a common epithet applied to his style, certainly among UK critics, though his musicianship was never called into question. This tended to work to LB's advantage, though, as a lot of people rather warmed to his podium persona, which - I admit - always seemed entirely natural, like it was just his way of doing things. My objection to MTT's style centres on the fact that (to me) it seems studied and 'cultivated' as a well as being distracting.

After watching Bernstein conduct Mahler 8 at the RAH in the 1970s, the playwright Peter Shaffer is reputed to have said: 'There goes Lennie, humping the music again.'

[Mandryka]

If the orchestra attempted to follow him, it would be chaos, but their performance was magnificent.


HS

I'm not a musician, but doesn't the first part of that sentence constitute a fairly severe criticism of MTT?

I'm aware that it is by no means the rule (maybe the exception?) that orchestra's follow a conductor's directions (reminds me of a friend once recalling hearing the BPO conducted by Barenboim playing 'Karajan's Schubert 8 and Furtwangler's Schumann 4') but if they have to follow the leader rather than the man on the podium, surely something is wrong?

Then again, I can appreciate that the conductor's role may be most important in rehearsal - if he/she can inspire the troops, make them want to play well, he/she must be doing something right.

[Mr Pee]

I have watched MTT on Sky Arts TV several times recently. Yes, he is all over the shop. If the orchestra attempted to follow him, it would be chaos, but their performance was magnificent.

"All over the shop?'" Really? I've also watched MTT on Sky Arts quite a bit and I think his conducting is perfectly clear and precise. I would have no trouble whatsoever following him. Are you sure you're not getting confused with Valery Gergiev?

[salymap]

Great stuff, HS The anecdotes made me smile.



I'm sure you're right, but that's awkward for most of us... We can't judge his ability, as we can't get to the rehearsals...

Morning Cali, yes it's difficult as one gets older and a career, or in my case jobs intervene. But young people who are seriously interested in attending rehearsals should contact their nearest orchestra or write
to a conducter, care of the concert hall and ask if they hold open rehearsals.
I won't repeat how I found that path but HS is right. The orchestra and conductor are not putting on a show; the rehearsal is where one can really hear the music taken to pieces, difficult passages repeated and problems discussed. Much more interesting than the concert usually.

On topic - I have never seen MTT conduct, don't have Sky so can't comment on him.

[amateur51]

Your flagging memory is not serving you well, Amy: I was, in fact, quoting you. So, there!

Not so, Mandy - I offer you your post #63 in this thread where you quote me and then use the expression 'Tilly Thomas'

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?7273-So-who-will-in-be-in-the-running-to-take-over-the-Berlin-Phil-once-Sir-Simon-leaves/page3

Why am I not surprised to see you proselytising for Tilly Thomas?

A straightforward retraction and apology will suffice.

[amateur51]

Whilst I accept Hornspieler's professiional assessment of MTT without question, it would seem odd to me that a self-governing hard-nosed orchestra like the LSO would invite him to conduct them, then appoint him as Chief Conductor, and then continue to invite him to conduct them if they thought that he was 'all over the shop'. They must have espied some positive virtues, surely.

[Dave2002]

In watching Bernstein conduct, you do get a sense not only of a man giving a performance, but of a man who wishes to be seen to be giving a performance. - wanting the spectator to be aware of him and his pivotal role in creating the sounds that the spectator is hearing. Quite a few European conductors tend toward the self-effacing, on the podium at least, but Bernstein was the reverse of that and people both loved and hated him for it - 'vulgar' was a common epithet applied to his style, certainly among UK critics, though his musicianship was never called into question. This tended to work to LB's advantage, though, as a lot of people rather warmed to his podium persona, which - I admit - always seemed entirely natural, like it was just his way of doing things. My objection to MTT's style centres on the fact that (to me) it seems studied and 'cultivated' as a well as being distracting.

After watching Bernstein conduct Mahler 8 at the RAH in the 1970s, the playwright Peter Shaffer is reputed to have said: 'There goes Lennie, humping the music again.'

Listen to Mravinsky conducting on recordings, then look at him on YouTube. Can you really imagine that the sounds produced came from his expressions and movements?

[Mr Pee]

Whilst I accept Hornspieler's professiional assessment of MTT without question, it would seem odd to me that a self-governing hard-nosed orchestra like the LSO would invite him to conduct them, then appoint him as Chief Conductor, and then continue to invite him to conduct them if they thought that he was 'all over the shop'. They must have espied some positive virtues, surely.

Well I do question HS's assessment, in fact I find it hard to understand. I have watched MTT many times on Sky Arts and think he is an extremely clear conductor, both in terms of the basic beat and the cues he gives to players and sections within the orchestra. I really don't know where HS is coming from with his comment.

[rauschwerk]

He has made a highly successful recording of Copland's Short Symphony, rarely performed on account of its great rhythmic intricacy. I saw him with the SFSO in London a good few years ago, and do not at all remember being put off by looking at him. That programme included Copland's Symphonic Ode - again, this was a successful performance of a rhythmically intricate and rarely performed piece. I am impressed by his recording of Stravinsky symphonies, Agon and the Huxley variations (all LSO). I haven't heard him in Mahler.

[amateur51]

Two of my most memorable LSO concerts were conducted by MTT. There was a stunning performance of Berlioz's La Mort de Cleopatre at the Proms with Maria Ewing (at the end MTT bent down & kissed her shoes ); and at the Barbican they gave my first and thus-far only 'live' performance of Stravinsky's Perséphone

[Mandryka]

Not so, Mandy - I offer you your post #63 in this thread where you quote me and then use the expression 'Tilly Thomas'

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?7273-So-who-will-in-be-in-the-running-to-take-over-the-Berlin-Phil-once-Sir-Simon-leaves/page3

A straightforward retraction and apology will suffice.

Very thin ice, indeed - of the kind you usually skate on.

If anyone could be bothered to do an analysis of your postings, I'm sure the results would be something like 5% content, 95% flaming, jibes and attempted pranks.

You're not really a good advertisement for dignified senior citizenship, Amy.