Michael Tilson Thomas: Opinions?

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  • Mandryka
    • Jan 2025

    Michael Tilson Thomas: Opinions?

    I have seen MTT (as he is universally known) in concert on two separate occasions: the first was an LSO event at the Barbican - and I can remember the entire programme, too (Ives' Unanswered Question; Bartok's Viola Concerto and Bruckner 9; can't recall the soloist's name, but it was a Russian).

    The concert began late as, we were informed by tannoy, the rehearsal had been extended: never a good sign. When it began, I was immediately struck by MTT's extremely mannered podium style: all of his gestures seemed deliberately 'showy' (I can still see him cue-ing the offstage brass in the Ives) and over-elaborate. He was very difficult to ignore or channel out, with the result that I found it difficult to concentrate on the music, so perturbed was I by the prospect of what camp gesture MTT was about to execute next. All told, he came across less as a conductor than as someone playing the part of a conductor - and in a very showy and unconvincing way.

    I made a mental note to avoid MTT in future and, for a while (about eighteen months), I managed to do so.

    Cut to summer 2000: a friend of mine asked if I'd like to accompany her to a Prom the main item of which would be Shostakovich ll. OK, I said, that sounds good. The orchestra was, I think, the San Francisco Symphony, conducted by MTT - though, in those days of less regular access to the internet media, I only found this out once we'd arrived at the venue. When I saw MTT's name on the programme, I heaved a sigh of disgust and made brief mention of my opinion of the conductor; but my friend assured me that MTT was 'very good', and that she'd seen him a couple of times before.

    Expecting to be thoroughly irritated and resolving to look at the RAH ceiling rather than at the stage, I headed toward our seats in the balcony. And so it began: I forget what the first item was but the Shostakovich was very good indeed. I can recall still finding MTT a bit too flamboyant for my tastes but this time he came up with the results and the only one of his gestures I can remember from that night was a rather effective little mime he did to indicate that there would be no encore (and quite right, too: you can't really follow S11with a bonbon).

    I have not seen MTT since but have gathered from speaking to others that he excites strong opinions, both pro- and anti-. I'd be interested to hear what others have to say.....
    Last edited by Guest; 26-01-13, 22:01.
  • Dave2002
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 18060

    #2
    I heard him do Ives' fourth symphony around 20 years ago at the Barbican. It was pretty good, as I recall.

    Comment

    • Thropplenoggin

      #3
      Originally posted by Mandryka View Post
      I have seen MTT (as he is universally known) in concert on two separate occasions: the first was an LSO event at the Barbican - and I can remember the entire programme, too (Ives' Unanswered Question; Bartok's Viola Concerto and Bruckner 9; can't recall the soloist's name, but it was a Russian).

      The concert began late as, we were informed by tannoy, the rehearsal had been extended: never a good sign. When it began, I was immediately struck by MTT's extremely mannered podium style: all of his gestures seemed deliberately 'showy' (I can still see him cue-ing the offstage brass in the Ives) and over-elaborate. He was very difficult to ignore or channel out, with the result that I found it difficult to concentrate on the music, so perturbed was I by the prospect of what camp gesture MTT was about to execute next. All told, he came across less as a conductor than as someone playing the part of a conductor - and in a very showy and unconvincing way.

      I made a mental note to avoid MTT in future and, for a while (about eighteen months), I managed to do so.

      Cut to summer 2000: a friend of mine asked if I'd like to accompany her to a Prom the main item of which would be Shostakovich ll. OK, I said, that sounds good. The orchestra was, I think, the San Francisco Symphony, conducted by MTT - though, in those days of less regular access to the internet media, I only found this out once we'd arrived at the venue. When I saw MTT's name on the programme, I heaved a sigh of disgust and made brief mention of my opinion of the conductor; but my friend assured me that MTT was 'very good', and that she'd seen him a couple of times before.

      Expecting to be thoroughly irritated and resolving to look at the RAH ceiling rather than at the stage, I headed toward our seats in the balcony. And so it began: I forget what the first item was but the Shostakovich was very good indeed. I can recall still finding MTT a bit too flamboyant for my tastes but this time he came up with the results and the only one of his gestures I can remember from that night was a rather effective little mime he did to indicate that there would be no encore (and quite right, too: you can't really follow S10 with a bonbon).

      I have not seen MTT since but have gathered from speaking to others that he excites strong opinions, both pro- and anti-. I'd be interested to hear what others have to say.....
      This does read like thinly-veiled homophobia of a known gay conductor. How many non-gay conductors could also be accused of flamboyancy and campness in their gestures? Nilsons? Rattle? Tennstedt? Do correct me if I'm wrong, M.

      I've never seen him conduct nor heard his recordings, but this TED lecture is inspirational stuff. I for one can't fault his passion or commitment to the cause of Classical Music.

      Comment

      • Flosshilde
        Full Member
        • Nov 2010
        • 7988

        #4
        Originally posted by Thropplenoggin View Post
        This does read like thinly-veiled homophobia
        Mandryka & thinly-veiled homophobia? Never!

        Comment

        • Mandryka

          #5
          Originally posted by Thropplenoggin View Post
          This does read like thinly-veiled homophobia of a known gay conductor. How many non-gay conductors could also be accused of flamboyancy and campness in their gestures? Nilsons? Rattle? Tennstedt? Do correct me if I'm wrong, M.

          I've never seen him conduct nor heard his recordings, but this TED lecture is inspirational stuff. I for one can't fault his passion or commitment to the cause of Classical Music.

          http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_til...ough_time.html

          Oh, come on, thropplenoggin! Flamboyance and camp are hardly the exclusive preserves of homosexual conductors; and I'm not sure what YOUR aim is in bringing MTT's sexuality into the matter, something that I DO NOT MENTION in my initial post.

          Comment

          • Nick Armstrong
            Host
            • Nov 2010
            • 26601

            #6
            Originally posted by Mandryka View Post
            I made a mental note to avoid MTT in future
            I went a step further - I heard/saw him conduct the LSO in Mahler's 5th and swore a solemn oath never to hear him 'do' Mahler ever again. To my ears, he played it like Gershwin. (I gather his recordings of Mahler in SF have been very good - if he conducted some with them in London, I might break my oath to see if he's turned into a decent Mahler conductor).

            Talking of Gershwin, one of the CDs I've probably played most over the last 25-odd years (though not lately) is his recording with the Buffalo PO of George's 'Broadway Overtures' plus Rhapsody in Blue with Gershwin on a piano roll. Terrific stuff; and I enjoy his DG recording of Bernstein's "On The Town" too. I'd trust him in American repertoire - not much else, as things stand.
            "...the isle is full of noises,
            Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
            Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
            Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

            Comment

            • makropulos
              Full Member
              • Nov 2010
              • 1685

              #7
              Originally posted by Mandryka View Post
              I have seen MTT (as he is universally known) in concert on two separate occasions: the first was an LSO event at the Barbican - and I can remember the entire programme, too (Ives' Unanswered Question; Bartok's Viola Concerto and Bruckner 9; can't recall the soloist's name, but it was a Russian).

              The concert began late as, we were informed by tannoy, the rehearsal had been extended: never a good sign. When it began, I was immediately struck by MTT's extremely mannered podium style: all of his gestures seemed deliberately 'showy' (I can still see him cue-ing the offstage brass in the Ives) and over-elaborate. He was very difficult to ignore or channel out, with the result that I found it difficult to concentrate on the music, so perturbed was I by the prospect of what camp gesture MTT was about to execute next. All told, he came across less as a conductor than as someone playing the part of a conductor - and in a very showy and unconvincing way.

              I made a mental note to avoid MTT in future and, for a while (about eighteen months), I managed to do so.

              Cut to summer 2000: a friend of mine asked if I'd like to accompany her to a Prom the main item of which would be Shostakovich ll. OK, I said, that sounds good. The orchestra was, I think, the San Francisco Symphony, conducted by MTT - though, in those days of less regular access to the internet media, I only found this out once we'd arrived at the venue. When I saw MTT's name on the programme, I heaved a sigh of disgust and made brief mention of my opinion of the conductor; but my friend assured me that MTT was 'very good', and that she'd seen him a couple of times before.

              Expecting to be thoroughly irritated and resolving to look at the RAH ceiling rather than at the stage, I headed toward our seats in the balcony. And so it began: I forget what the first item was but the Shostakovich was very good indeed. I can recall still finding MTT a bit too flamboyant for my tastes but this time he came up with the results and the only one of his gestures I can remember from that night was a rather effective little mime he did to indicate that there would be no encore (and quite right, too: you can't really follow S11with a bonbon).

              I have not seen MTT since but have gathered from speaking to others that he excites strong opinions, both pro- and anti-. I'd be interested to hear what others have to say.....

              No idea what you mean about "showy and unconvincing", let alone camp. MTT is a serious musician, and in my experience a very fine one. I heard him conduct a marvellous concert back in about 1972 including Messiaen's Et exspecto, Ravel's Shéhérazade (Frederica von Stade's Festival Hall debut if I remember rightly) and La Mer - then some very good Mozart and Beethoven with the LSO and ECO a few years later, some terrific Mahler and Strauss with the LSO when he was in charge, and that's before even starting on the American music that he does so well. Nobody conducts Bernstein better - except Bernstein. The concert performance of "On The Town" at the Barbican a year or so after LB's death was unforgettable, he's done magnificent Ives and Copland, and I could go on. I suggest judging with ears rather than eyes (and without whatever prejudices may or may not lie behind some of the comments in the original post).

              Comment

              • Mr Pee
                Full Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 3285

                #8
                Originally posted by Mandryka View Post
                Oh, come on, thropplenoggin! Flamboyance and camp are hardly the exclusive preserves of homosexual conductors; and I'm not sure what YOUR aim is in bringing MTT's sexuality into the matter, something that I DO NOT MENTION in my initial post.
                Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.

                Mark Twain.

                Comment

                • amateur51

                  #9
                  Oh hard luck Mandy, the cavalry's arrived and it's Mr Pee

                  Comment

                  • Petrushka
                    Full Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 12386

                    #10
                    I first saw MTT in Berlin in 1980 conducting Stravinsky with the BPO and have remained largely ambivalent about him ever since.

                    I wonder if I was at the same LSO Mahler 5 as Caliban (Proms 1992) as my feelings were similar. Coming the night after a stunning Bruckner 8 from Wand didn't help. I was much more impressed with his Proms appearances with the SFSO which included the DSCH 11 that Mandryka mentions as well as a fine Mahler 7.

                    Yes, he can be visually distracting and in all honesty I wouldn't make a big effort to attend one of his concerts. Very disappointed to see that he is down to conduct the VPO in London on April 9 http://www.wienerphilharmoniker.at/i..._concerts=1243. One to miss, I'm afraid.
                    "The sound is the handwriting of the conductor" - Bernard Haitink

                    Comment

                    • amateur51

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Mandryka View Post
                      I have seen MTT (as he is universally known)
                      Not so, Mandy - you referred to him as 'Tilly Thomas' on the Simon Rattle thread
                      Last edited by Guest; 26-01-13, 22:58. Reason: trypo

                      Comment

                      • Thropplenoggin

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Mandryka View Post
                        Oh, come on, thropplenoggin! Flamboyance and camp are hardly the exclusive preserves of homosexual conductors; and I'm not sure what YOUR aim is in bringing MTT's sexuality into the matter, something that I DO NOT MENTION in my initial post.
                        They do say repression manifests itself in strange ways Come out the closet, Mandy. These are the Noughties...you have nothing to fear.

                        Comment

                        • Mandryka

                          #13
                          Originally posted by amateur51 View Post
                          Not so, Mandy - you referred to him as 'Tilly Thomas' on the Simon Rattle thread
                          Your flagging memory is not serving you well, Amy: I was, in fact, quoting you. So, there!

                          Comment

                          • Mandryka

                            #14
                            Originally posted by makropulos View Post
                            No idea what you mean about "showy and unconvincing", let alone camp. MTT is a serious musician, and in my experience a very fine one. I heard him conduct a marvellous concert back in about 1972 including Messiaen's Et exspecto, Ravel's Shéhérazade (Frederica von Stade's Festival Hall debut if I remember rightly) and La Mer - then some very good Mozart and Beethoven with the LSO and ECO a few years later, some terrific Mahler and Strauss with the LSO when he was in charge, and that's before even starting on the American music that he does so well. Nobody conducts Bernstein better - except Bernstein. The concert performance of "On The Town" at the Barbican a year or so after LB's death was unforgettable, he's done magnificent Ives and Copland, and I could go on. I suggest judging with ears rather than eyes (and without whatever prejudices may or may not lie behind some of the comments in the original post).
                            I own his recording of Debussy's San Sebastien with the LSO and Leslie Caron as narrator and it's OK, though it's not work I care to return to very often.

                            I also have an LSO Heldenleben by him: also OK, but nothing to get excited about

                            I don't listen to much American repertoire but will take Caliban's word for it that he's on comfortable ground there.

                            And I don't doubt that he's a serious musician: I just didn't/don't care for his podium manner, which I found unnecessarily distracting. Bernstein could be showy and flamboyant, too, but he was a natural vulgarian and so could brazen it out.

                            Comment

                            • Mandryka

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Thropplenoggin View Post
                              They do say repression manifests itself in strange ways Come out the closet, Mandy. These are the Noughties...you have nothing to fear.
                              And, of course, it can manifest itself in paranoiac reactions to entirely innocent statements. Physician, heal thyself.

                              Comment

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