Royal Philharmonic Society Bicentenary Tonight 24 Jan at 7.30

[amateur51]

Sorry I've not had much time for this (or other concerts) this week, I prefer to take them live-in-one...

Thanks HS for such a detailed appraisal. I've been very fond of the Dvorak since I heard an open-reel sourced download of Maag/Peinemann/Czech PO (at HDTT) so I'll TRY to catch up, but...

...which is all an excuse to say I ADORE BEETHOVEN'S 9TH FROM THE FIRST NOTE TO THE LAST!
A great and revolutionary masterpiece, a great summation of what went before, opening its broad gates onto the future; marvellous in itself.

(What a strange fashion on this forum, to keep insulting it....I hope it's not because the finale is "too popular" or something...)

Total agreement here, jlw

[marvin]

Sorry I've not had much time for this (or other concerts) this week, I prefer to take them live-in-one...

Thanks HS for such a detailed appraisal. I've been very fond of the Dvorak since I heard an open-reel sourced download of Maag/Peinemann/Czech PO (at HDTT) so I'll TRY to catch up, but...

...which is all an excuse to say I ADORE BEETHOVEN'S 9TH FROM THE FIRST NOTE TO THE LAST!
A great and revolutionary masterpiece, a great summation of what went before, opening its broad gates onto the future; marvellous in itself.

(What a strange fashion on this forum, to keep insulting it....I hope it's not because the finale is "too popular" or something...)

No it is nothing to do with that at all. It is just a crass, jarring, unpleasant sounding piece of musical composition however the 'slow' movement is sublime.
You're not John Suchet are you? If you were then I might forgive, a little some of your misplaced enthusiasm.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

...which is all an excuse to say I ADORE BEETHOVEN'S 9TH FROM THE FIRST NOTE TO THE LAST!

My excuse is that it's ...

A great and revolutionary masterpiece, a great summation of what went before, opening its broad gates onto the future; marvellous in itself.

... no need for any other! (I'd have added a "sublime" somewhere )

(What a strange fashion on this forum, to keep insulting it....I hope it's not because the finale is "too popular" or something...)

Not in all cases - it's just that they don't like it, poor things. No doubt there are some paranoid androids who try to "justify" their missing the point completely.

[salymap]

Some time ago a much missed poster 'Mario of Malta' nearly came to pistols at dawn with err. one of us, over the last movement of the Choral. I agree that the rest of the work is sublime but the last movement does not work for me and many others, it seems. Sorry Jayne.

[jayne lee wilson]

My excuse is that it's ...


... no need for any other! (I'd have added a "sublime" somewhere )


Not in all cases - it's just that they don't like it, poor things. No doubt there are some paranoid androids who try to "justify" their missing the point completely.

oh, fhg...

[jayne lee wilson]

No it is nothing to do with that at all. It is just a crass, jarring, unpleasant sounding piece of musical composition however the 'slow' movement is sublime.
You're not John Suchet are you? If you were then I might forgive, a little some of your misplaced enthusiasm.

As a labour of love, one more time , WITHOUT PREJUDICE...

"The finale of the 9th is an organic blend of variations and sonata, with both introduction and symphonic coda, and not without a suggestion of rondo. Structurally it is a summing-up of classical possibilities, all expressed in a single huge design with astonishing certainty of touch; it even has the shade of the classical concerto in it, as if Beethoven, like Bach in The Art of Fugue, were intent on encompassing everything he knew in one mighty act."
(Robert Simpson)

So - some "just hate it" some "just love it"...

But in the old spirit of radio 3 and The Classical Style, it is only through love that one can reach beyond the merely personal - to the glimpse of the possibility of a universal value, an encompassing truth.

Perhaps that is what Beethoven meant by "Joy".

[Hornspieler]

As a labour of love, one more time , WITHOUT PREJUDICE...

"The finale of the 9th is an organic blend of variations and sonata, with both introduction and symphonic coda, and not without a suggestion of rondo. Structurally it is a summing-up of classical possibilities, all expressed in a single huge design with astonishing certainty of touch; it even has the shade of the classical concerto in it, as if Beethoven, like Bach in The Art of Fugue, were intent on encompassing everything he knew in one mighty act."
(Robert Simpson)

So - some "just hate it" some "just love it"...

But in the old spirit of radio 3 and The Classical Style, it is only through love that one can reach beyond the merely personal - to the glimpse of the possibility of a universal value, an encompassing truth.

Perhaps that is what Beethoven meant by "Joy".

I'm sorry Jayne, but until you can find me a vocal quartet which does not sound like the hounds' chorus in the dog pound from Walt Disney's "Lady and the Tramp" I will continue to consider that this is a very poor piece of vocal writing and the finale is unworthy of what has gone before in this symphony.

Consider the sparkling finales of LvB's other symphonies and then consider this "rewrite" of his awful Choral Fantasia ("Receive the Gifts of God Divine" - No thanks!)

So some people love it (some people love "Climb Every Mountain" or "You'll Never Walk Alone") but that does not mean that those of us who consider this to be unworthy of a great composer's talents are in the wrong.

But in the old spirit of radio 3 and The Classical Style, it is only through love that one can reach beyond the merely personal - to the glimpse of the possibility of a universal value, an encompassing truth.

What on earth does that mean?

For me and for many others, the encompassing truth is that Beethoven, one of the world's greatest composers, fell at the last hurdle.

Sad, but undeniable.

Hornspieler

BTW I'm sorry, but I find J S Bach's "Art of Fugue" tedious in the extreme. I suspect that I am not alone there, either.

[amateur51]

I'm sorry Jayne, but until you can find me a vocal quartet which does not sound like the hounds' chorus in the dog pound from Walt Disney's "Lady and the Tramp" I will continue to consider that this is a very poor piece of vocal writing and the finale is unworthy of what has gone before in this symphony.

Consider the sparkling finales of LvB's other symphonies and then consider this "rewrite" of his awful Choral Fantasia ("Receive the Gifts of God Divine" - No thanks!)

So some people love it (some people love "Climb Every Mountain" or "You'll Never Walk Alone") but that does not mean that those of us who consider this to be unworthy of a great composer's talents are in the wrong.



What on earth does that mean?

For me and for many others, the encompassing truth is that Beethoven, one of the world's greatest composers, fell at the last hurdle.

Sad, but undeniable.

Hornspieler

BTW I'm sorry, but I find J S Bach's "Art of Fugue" tedious in the extreme. I suspect that I am not alone there, either.

I recall some wonderful last movements of Beethoven symphony no 9 in the concert hall. particularly performances conducted by Simon Rattle. There's a wonderful recording of a 'live' performance conducted by Karl Boehm that I wish I could give you the details of, plus several others.

In part I think the problem may lie with your near-perfect (I'm treading on egg shells here ) pitch, Hornspieler. I don't suffer from this and so maybe I have a greater tolerance of what you perceive as 'error'?

The Furtwaengler Ninths are of course organised chaos in the last few pages but that's clearly what he wanted as it happened every time (to a greater or lesser extent) and jolly exciting it is too ;biggrin:

[Thropplenoggin]

Surely one could simply love the fourth movement of Beethoven's Ninth simply for the way it begins.

Nothing like that before, surely: dissonant tutti, more apocalyptic than joyful. A nice piece of misdirection? A wake up call after the adagio (especially all 29 minute's worth of one conducted by Fürtwangler )?

Then that crazy recapitulation of earlier themes, all false starts. Then the cellos and basses introduce THAT theme! I get goose-pimples just contemplating it...

As for the choral writing, there are so many moments of exquisite beauty, moments where we apprehend the sublime, moving into that otherworldly soundworld of late Beethoven, that, to these ears, sounds like nothing before or since. This bit for instance (listen from 0:00-1:58):

It's like B. out-sublimes the more transcendent parts of the Missa Solemnis (I'm thinking the start of the 'Sanctus' here, which sounds very similar). Transported thus, I can't help but think of LvB's words: Music is the one incorporeal entrance into the higher world of knowledge which comprehends mankind but which mankind cannot comprehend.

Then to throw in a Turkish march! And quartet writing that sounds operatic!

Yes, it could be dismissed as a musical pot pourri but I find it just outrageously audacious - a genius firing on all cylinders who is beyond caring what mere mortals think of his work.

Now I think I better go and have a cup of tea.

p.s. I'd recommend Fricsay's version on DG: the vocal quartet is Maureen Forrester, Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, Irmgard Seefried and Ernst Haefliger.

[salymap]

Whatever our views on the last movement of the 9th symphony, surely we are allowed to disagree without the over the top language used by some on this thread.

I certainly don't hate it but abuse doesn't strengthen anybody's case. I refer to Paranoid Androids particularly. Fit for Parliament perhaps but not here please

[JFLL]

Re Beethoven’s Ninth: I have to confess that I find the main theme of the finale of the Ninth, dare I say it, rather ‘obvious’, not in itself very interesting or attractive – similarly, for me, those of the finale of Brahms 1 and the first movement of Elgar 1. What’s made of them is a different matter, though. Some people, I know, have the same reaction to the first movement of Schubert’s Ninth, which I have no problems with at all. Just a personal feeling or failing, no doubt.

[jayne lee wilson]

Whatever our views on the last movement of the 9th symphony, surely we are allowed to disagree without the over the top language used by some on this thread.

I certainly don't hate it but abuse doesn't strengthen anybody's case. I refer to Paranoid Androids particularly. Fit for Parliament perhaps but not here please

Saly - "Paranoid Android" is a Radiohead song which fhg alluded to as a friendly gesture to me. I had recently mentioned it on the 4/4 pop music thread as rhythmically interesting...

HS - if you love a thing - a person, an animal, a work of art - you have to grow a little to understand it, you have to reach out; become something more than yourself. (With a work of Art, the greater the challenge, the greater the "growth".)
With hate and dislike you remain self-obsessed: hanging on to your opinions, however right or wrong, because they are a part of your identity.

With Beethoven and Schiller, "alle menschen werden bruder" united in "joy" - in the experience of joy, of release from yourself, which comes from a breeze on a mountaintop, a glass of fine wine, a complex, sophisticated work of art, a chart-topping pop song; a Great Chorus of Humanity.

We all experience these things; have them within, in an individual balance. But the greater the joy in the world, in people, the more we want to reach out, and to share... "Thy magic power reunites/all that custom has divided" and "Even the worm can feel contentment/and the cherub stands before God!" as the Ode says.

(But if it all comes down to perfect pitch, then... "Even the dog leaves the room/ And the Hornplayer curses God!")

[Hornspieler]

HS - if you love a thing - a person, an animal, a work of art - you have to grow a little to understand it, you have to reach out; become something more than yourself. (With a work of Art, the greater the challenge, the greater the "growth".)
With hate and dislike you remain self-obsessed: hanging on to your opinions, however right or wrong, because they are a part of your identity.

Exactly so, Jayne. And that goes both ways.

With Beethoven and Schiller, "alle menschen werden bruder" united in "joy" - in the experience of joy, of release from yourself, which comes from a breeze on a mountaintop, a glass of fine wine, a complex, sophisticated work of art, a chart-topping pop song; a Great Chorus of Humanity
We all experience these things; have them within, in an individual balance. But the greater the joy in the world, in people, the more we want to reach out, and to share... "Thy magic power reunites/all that custom has divided" and "Even the worm can feel contentment/and the cherub stands before God!" as the Ode says.

Thank you. I never realised that.

(But if it all comes down to perfect pitch, then... "Even the dog leaves the room/ And the Hornplayer curses God!")

So all of us, (like JFLL, message #26 above) who, whilst admiring Beethoven's great contribution to music (and humanity) think that with his ninth symphony he attempted "a bridge too far" curse God?

I suggest that if anything drives our pets from the room, it is the woeful noises of the voices in that final movement.

"Wellington's Victory" is probably the worst piece of music written by any great composer but I suggest that it is with his "Ode to Joy" that Beethoven himself met his Waterloo.

(I have withdrawn an unwaranted remark here, which was in reply to one person's and should not have been addressed to all message boarders - my apologies).

I have never cursed anyone.

Hornspieler (and I don't have "perfect pitch" - merely a fully trained ear for what is in tune or out of tune.)

[amateur51]

For myself, my sympathies are for those armchair critics who do not have the background, professional training or practical experience gained over many years' work as players, conductors and administrators of one of God's greatest gifts to mankind

You cavil when mere mortals, we 'armchair critics', don't comment on 'live concerts, and then when we take courage and do so and dare to offer an alternative view, you crush us ruthlessly.

Brook no argument, Hornspieler was here!

[Hornspieler]

You cavil when mere mortals, we 'armchair critics', don't comment on 'live concerts, and then when we take courage and do so and dare to offer an alternative view, you crush us ruthlessly.

Brook no argument, Hornspieler was here!

Not intentionally AMs and I have amended my post #28 accordingly. Without healthy debate, this forum would be pointless.

HS