Halle/Elder 1/11/2012

[jayne lee wilson]

Just made it, somewhat breathlessly, for the Nielsen Violin Concerto with Henning Kraggerud. Ah, how I wish the same could be said of the performers...
It may not be Nielsen's greatest music and it certainly lacks the compelling monodrama of the flute and clarinet concertos, but its expansive geniality was not best served by a rather anonymous, indeed charmeless account tonight. Our soloist played all the right notes, he and the orchestra woke up a little as the dynamic level rose... and then both relaxed back into accurate dullness. Composed after Sinfonia Espansiva, the piece only works if you give it the level of gutty commitment the symphony usually inspires.

I was fairly amazed at the sheer Romantic indulgence of Elder's Rachmaninov. He gave us a 3rd symphony with a degree of rubato which evoked Hollywood rather more than a lost and lamented Russian homeland. The orchestra were audibly struggling to phrase through the wayward, almost eccentric varying of the pulse, with Elder's very audible vocal encouragement (or accompaniment) only adding to a sense of almost bizarre individualism. The adagio focussed more clearly on the musical structure, yet even here the extremes of tempo - very slow, then whipped-up excitement for the central scherzo, did little to change the sense of episodic fragmentation. The direction was lacking through phrase and paragraph, but our maestro brought his forces together for an unexpectedly glorious final climax, worthy of Philadelphia!

A predictably tighter finale (perhaps relief that the end was near) only reminded me that this always seems the weakest of Rachmaninov's movements, the central fugue an attempt to shore up this under-achieving symphony with a formal display. I see what Elder was attempting but felt that this reading, for all its boldness, was too much of a work-in-progress - if not actually misconceived. Petrenko - twice recently in Liverpool - has given us a 3rd which succeeds with the opposite approach - swift, incisive, urgent and sensuously Russian.

But the late masterwork of the Symphonic Dances was not far away... the 3rd Symphony seems to me a mere preparation, and I recall Edward Downes being of a similar mind...

[Alison]

Thanks Jayne, you sum up the performances to perfection.

I could scarcely believe how unnatural the symphony's opening themes sounded and despite pockets of fine playing it was a hugely disappointing reading. Even the normally exuberant Halle audience seemed muted in their response.

How do you rate the Petrenko Recording of the Third?

[Hornspieler]

Beethoven was a great composer, but he did produce some very unworthy music and some of his overtures are, to me, without much more merit than his "Wellington's Victory" nonsense.

For me "The Ruins of Athens" falls within that category.
I have never cared for Nielsen's music, whether it be "Indefatigable", "Indecipherable", "Inexhaustable" or any other such meaningless sub-title
(maybe suffering the symphonies in Birmingham under the baton of Harold Gray didn't help) so I gave that concerto a miss.

Rachmaninov's 3rd symphony? A shadow of his previous two IMV and like his piano concertos, nothing to prove and little more to say.

But having read JLW's excellent summary, I do feel compelled to listen to the symphony on iPlayer.

There is a very fine line between Rubato and Distortion and the same can be said of Interpretation and Self Indulgence.

I have felt in the past that Mark Elder does tend sometimes to cross those lines (for all that he is a good conductor and has raised the Hallé orchestras standards over the years)

So I will listen with, I hope, an open mind as well as wide open ears and see what I think about the symphony.

HS

[Sir Velo]

Extremely underwhelmed by the Nielsen, in what seemed to these ears an under rehearsed performance. Anyone with any doubts as to the merits of the piece should look to hear Tellefsen's analogue recording with Blomstedt and the DRSO, or Cho-Liang Lin accompanied by Salonen and the Philharmonia.

[Hornspieler]

I was fairly amazed at the sheer Romantic indulgence of Elder's Rachmaninov. He gave us a 3rd symphony with a degree of rubato which evoked Hollywood rather more than a lost and lamented Russian homeland. The orchestra were audibly struggling to phrase through the wayward, almost eccentric varying of the pulse, with Elder's very audible vocal encouragement (or accompaniment) only adding to a sense of almost bizarre individualism. The adagio focussed more clearly on the musical structure, yet even here the extremes of tempo - very slow, then whipped-up excitement for the central scherzo, did little to change the sense of episodic fragmentation. The direction was lacking through phrase and paragraph, but our maestro brought his forces together for an unexpectedly glorious final climax, worthy of Philadelphia!

A predictably tighter finale (perhaps relief that the end was near) only reminded me that this always seems the weakest of Rachmaninov's movements, the central fugue an attempt to shore up this under-achieving symphony with a formal display. I see what Elder was attempting but felt that this reading, for all its boldness, was too much of a work-in-progress - if not actually misconceived. Petrenko - twice recently in Liverpool - has given us a 3rd which succeeds with the opposite approach - swift, incisive, urgent and sensuously Russian.

But the late masterwork of the Symphonic Dances was not far away... the 3rd Symphony seems to me a mere preparation, and I recall Edward Downes being of a similar mind...

Well I've just listened to the Rachmaninov and I feel bound to say that I was not really aware of any excessive rubato.
I found the first movement rather boring (only what I expected) but there was some very slick playing in the scherzo and the string playing in the finale was accurate and lively.

In fact I can't fault the orchestra at all on this performance.

I thought they gave a very good rendering of the composer's rather poor job.

HS

PS My wife remarks that it sounds like a pastiche written by another composer. I couldn't have put it better myself!

[amateur51]

Extremely underwhelmed by the Nielsen, in what seemed to these ears an under rehearsed performance. Anyone with any doubts as to the merits of the piece should look to hear Tellefsen's analogue recording with Blomstedt and the DRSO, or Cho-Liang Lin accompanied by Salonen and the Philharmonia.

Many thanks for these tips, Sir Velo

[Alison]

But the first movement shouldn't be boring.

This is surely very much a case of good orchestra, poor conducting.

[Hornspieler]

But the first movement shouldn't be boring.

This is surely very much a case of good orchestra, poor conducting.

Or predictable writing?

[ahinton]

Much as I appreciate Jayne's typically elegant and persuasively written review and despite having been around to hear only part of the second movement and the final of the Rachmaninov last night, I find it hard to concur with the notion that the third symphony is more Hollywood than nostalgia for his Russian past, not least because it seems to me to have an abundance of both and quite subtly blended at that and, since the composer had been a US resident for quite some time before writing it, this is perhaps less surprising than it might seem.

It's sad (for me, at any rate, however) to see trotted out versions of the same old time-dishonoured barbs that Rachmaninov had nothing new to say but still said it and which greeted almost every new work that he wrote after leaving his native land for good; indeed, some of the reviews that he received seemed almost hell-bent on promoting this idea as though there could be no credible argument against it and, as often as not, Rachmaninov would be set up as the great pianist that he was purely in order then to be knocked down as a composer rooted firmly in his past with his head firmly in the sand and nothing fresh to convey. It's interesting, however, to contrast this attitude of mind with Jayne's "more Hollywood than Russia" idea, for it would surely take quite a leap of imagination for them both to be right?!

As to the part of the performance that I heard, I had no especial objections on the grounds of undue or otherwise inappropriate rubato and, whilst perhaps an approach that lent greater priority to tight architectonic organisation would have helped the work to come across more persuasively, I have heard quite a few performances of the symphony over the years that were a good deal less convincing that Elder's.

Is it Rachmaninov's weakest symphony? I wouldn't say so, not least because all three are so very different, despite having their composer's stamp firmly upon them. OK, even a self-confessed Rachmaninov devotee such as yours truly might allow that the fugato section in the finale could be made to sound as though a somewhat workmanlike excuse for where to take the music next, as if to say "oh, well, I suppose I may as well have a fugue here - it served William Walton well enough in his first symphony!" but, even then, this section is so brief as to sweep away such a reaction almost as soon as it had begun, so even this doesn't really bother me.

[jayne lee wilson]

AH - if you look at my review again you'll see that it was this performance, not the piece itself, that I criticised for its Romantic indulgences. Point taken about Hollywood and Russia commingling in the composer's creator spiritus; but if you play say, the second subject of (i) or the soaring, culminatory melody in (ii) more tightly than Elder, as I've heard Petrenko do (twice live, sorry - not heard the CD) they sound very natively Russian. I would focus on the end of that 1st movement 2nd group as the most obvious moment where Elder's ritardando almost brought the music to a standstill, and the orchestral momentum became very uncertain. This fed a hesitancy through the rest of the movement, whose structure is, anyway, not as tightly organised, or as convincing concluded, as the 1st movements in symphonies 1 and 2 (even given the sheer length of the latter - da capo, anyone...?).

I hope you don't interpret my review as trotting out those outworn "barbs", especially given my oft-mentioned admiration for Rachmaninov, from the 1st Symphony to the Paganini Rhapsody. In the 1st movement of the 4th Piano Concerto, by the way, there is a similar feel to the second subject as in the 3rd symphony, which feels again as if it may settle too easily for too long; but thereafter it is superbly integrated into the musical argument, and plays quite a subtle and powerful role in the finale too (especially in the longer original version).

[ahinton]

AH - if you look at my review again you'll see that it was this performance, not the piece itself, that I criticised for its Romantic indulgences.

I did realise that; sorry if I made this insufficiently clear!

Point taken about Hollywood and Russia commingling in the composer's creator spiritus; but if you play say, the second subject of (i) or the soaring, culminatory melody in (ii) more tightly than Elder, as I've heard Petrenko do (twice live, sorry - not heard the CD) they sound very natively Russian.

Indeed so.

I would focus on the end of that 1st movement 2nd group as the most obvious moment where the ritardando almost brought the music to a standstill, and the orchestral momentum became very uncertain. This fed a hesitancy through the rest of the movement, whose structure is, anyway, not as tightly organised, or as convincing concluded, as the 1st movements in symphonies 1 and 2 (even given the sheer length of the latter - da capo, anyone...?).

Well, as I said, I missed the entire first movement, so I'm more than happy to take your word for that!

I hope you don't interpret my review as trotting out those outworn "barbs", especially given my oft-mentioned admiration for Rachmaninov, from the 1st Symphony to the Paganini Rhapsody. In the 1st movement of the 4th Piano Concerto, by the way, there is a similar feel to the second subject as in the 3rd symphony, which feels again as if it may settle too easily for too long; but thereafter it is superbly integrated into the musical argument, and plays quite a subtle and powerful role in the finale too (especially in the longer original version).

No, not at all, especially as you didn't make any! I was referring to those instances from fingers other than yours!

One of the saddest outcomes of Rachmaninov's last quarter century or so (his years of necessarily self-imposed exile) is that not only that he compose so sporadically during his "American period" but also that he never composed any more songs for voice and piano following that outstanding set of six Op. 38; this is especially galling given that, along with Medtner, he was among the finest Russian song composers of his time.

I have never received the impression - even when performances have not quite been up to scratch - that Rachmaninov was ever other than moving forward with new things to say and relatively new ways in which to say them; he may have become much less prolific after WWI but the quality of his work never deteriorated.

[Roslynmuse]

Interesting the difference between the live experience and the broadcast one. I was there, and don't recognise the description of the concert from Jayne's review! Especially the Rachmaninov. Yes, it was a broader performance than I've heard in the past, but there was never a sense in the hall of forced rubato or overdone expressivity. In fact, I found the architectural strength of the piece enhanced rather than not, especially in the second movement. The other thing that came across very strongly to me were the numerous touches of harmony, orchestration, melodic contour etc that indicate that however few works Rachmaninov wrote after leaving Russia, the imaginative flame was continually developing under the surface. Perhaps it's a less 'Rachmaninovianly (!) gorgeous' piece than the second symphony, but it's a piece supremely well in control of its material - simultaneously economical and deeply, profoundly expressive. I think last night's performance brought that out exceptionally well; there were also moments that connected with Elder's expertise in contemporary British scores - Bridge and Delius, as well as Walton (and even Eric Coates!)

The audience were enthusiastic too!

About the Nielsen I have little to say - I'm allergic to this composer's music. The violinist had a very beautiful tone (at least from my seat in the stalls) but some questionable intonation. There were one or two minor ensemble issues but the performance seemed to whip up the excitement at the appropriate places. I just couldn't find much in the music to get excited about. (And I don't much like the clarinet or flute concertos either...)

I must have heard the Beethoven at some point in the past but it didn't register as a familiar work. What a curious shape the piece has! I must listen again...

[Hornspieler]

Interesting the difference between the live experience and the broadcast one. I was there, and don't recognise the description of the concert from Jayne's review! Especially the Rachmaninov. Yes, it was a broader performance than I've heard in the past, but there was never a sense in the hall of forced rubato or overdone expressivity. In fact, I found the architectural strength of the piece enhanced rather than not, especially in the second movement. The other thing that came across very strongly to me were the numerous touches of harmony, orchestration, melodic contour etc that indicate that however few works Rachmaninov wrote after leaving Russia, the imaginative flame was continually developing under the surface. Perhaps it's a less 'Rachmaninovianly (!) gorgeous' piece than the second symphony, but it's a piece supremely well in control of its material - simultaneously economical and deeply, profoundly expressive. I think last night's performance brought that out exceptionally well; there were also moments that connected with Elder's expertise in contemporary British scores - Bridge and Delius, as well as Walton (and even Eric Coates!)

The audience were enthusiastic too!

About the Nielsen I have little to say - I'm allergic to this composer's music. The violinist had a very beautiful tone (at least from my seat in the stalls) but some questionable intonation. There were one or two minor ensemble issues but the performance seemed to whip up the excitement at the appropriate places. I just couldn't find much in the music to get excited about. (And I don't much like the clarinet or flute concertos either...)

I must have heard the Beethoven at some point in the past but it didn't register as a familiar work. What a curious shape the piece has! I must listen again...

Roslynmuse;

Your post (message#12) echoes my own feelings about this concert very closely.

So you can't stand Nielsen's music. That makes two of us - I don't even like his wind piece "Mladi"

As you can see from my message #3, those Beethoven overtures are anything but memorable - I would settle for Egmont, Coriolan and the Leonoras/Fidelio but that's the lot!

Interesting to me that you were in the hall. Listening on Radio, the balance seemed pretty good and I really could find little fault in the interpretation or the orchestra's ensemble.

I guess we all hear what we want to hear in the final analysis.

HS

[Barbirollians]

I only heard the Nielsen . It struck me as a disappointing performance - very disjointed between soloist and orchestra. The solo playing was rather self-regarding to my ears.

Both the Lin recording mentioned above and Vilde Frang's magnificent recent account knock it into a cocked hat .

[Tony Halstead]

So you can't stand Nielsen's music. That makes two of us - I don't even like his wind piece "Mladi"

Oh dear Mr Hornspieler, a case of mistaken attribution: that superb wind sextet 'Mladi' ( 'Youth') is by Janacek not Nielsen.
Since I'm mentioning superb works for Wind ensemble, IMV the Nielsen wind quintet is one of the few unarguably GREAT 20thC works in this medium, the others being Samuel Barber's 'Summer Music', Schoenberg's Wind Quintet , Hindemith's 'Kleine Kammermusik', Ligeti's 6 Bagatelles and 10 pieces.
The finest symphony by Nielsen ( the 5th IMHO) was recorded by our old orchestra in what I think is a 'definitive' performance conducted by Berglund.
Please send me some sympathy and encouragement as I have to conduct that piece in less than a month's time, in Scotland, rehearsing it only the day before the concert!