Bournemouth S.O play Prokofiev on Wednesday 10th October

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  • jayne lee wilson
    Banned
    • Jul 2011
    • 10711

    #16
    "Not quite savage enough" is just about right, HS - the Prokofiev 3 was well played but lacked a little rhythmic tautness and punch in the biggest moments...

    After the concert I listened to Ogawa/Arwel Hughes in the usual (revised) version of Rachmaninov's 4th Concerto, and Sudbin/Llewellyn in the rarely heard, very different original - the latter's finale is more convincing as a continuous structure, but can seem dauntingly complex in its developments from the motto and other themes from previous movements - and it seems to change course almost too frequently, like a flock of starlings trying to settle in their winter roost. But it needs to be known, and should be played much more often! Only then can you truly attempt a necessarily provisional judgement.
    The familiar version is much easier to grasp, but does sound disjointed on account of the cuts (Brucknerians will think of that awful, structural spatchcock which is the 1889 3rd...); remember how nervous Rachmaninov could be about this - his great 2nd Symphony suffered from "conductors' editions" for many years, and as for his 1st...

    I tend to think that the 4th Concerto - a difficult piece in any guise, though Michelangeli, Gracis and the Philharmonia do indeed triumph within it, or over it - was a necessary stopover on the way to the true masterpiece of the Paganini Rhapsody, just as the wonderful Symphonic Dances were the great "4th Symphony" that the awkward, uneven 3rd Symphony prepared the way for.

    (Apoloogies to HS for the amateur's musicology...)

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    • Hornspieler
      Late Member
      • Sep 2012
      • 1847

      #17
      Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
      "Not quite savage enough" is just about right, HS - the Prokofiev 3 was well played but lacked a little rhythmic tautness and punch in the biggest moments...

      After the concert I listened to Ogawa/Arwel Hughes in the usual (revised) version of Rachmaninov's 4th Concerto, and Sudbin/Llewellyn in the rarely heard, very different original - the latter's finale is more convincing as a continuous structure, but can seem dauntingly complex in its developments from the motto and other themes from previous movements - and it seems to change course almost too frequently, like a flock of starlings trying to settle in their winter roost. But it needs to be known, and should be played much more often! Only then can you truly attempt a necessarily provisional judgement.
      The familiar version is much easier to grasp, but does sound disjointed on account of the cuts (Brucknerians will think of that awful, structural spatchcock which is the 1889 3rd...); remember how nervous Rachmaninov could be about this - his great 2nd Symphony suffered from "conductors' editions" for many years, and as for his 1st...

      I tend to think that the 4th Concerto - a difficult piece in any guise, though Michelangeli, Gracis and the Philharmonia do indeed triumph within it, or over it - was a necessary stopover on the way to the true masterpiece of the Paganini Rhapsody, just as the wonderful Symphonic Dances were the great "4th Symphony" that the awkward, uneven 3rd Symphony prepared the way for.

      (Apoloogies to HS for the amateur's musicology...)
      Nice post, Jayne. You don't even need to apoloogise for your spelling

      HS

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      • ferneyhoughgeliebte
        Gone fishin'
        • Sep 2011
        • 30163

        #18
        Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
        just as the wonderful Symphonic Dances were the great "4th Symphony" that the awkward, uneven 3rd Symphony prepared the way for.
        Oooh; no, no, no, no, NO, Jayne! The Third is a complete masterpiece! Listen to the composer's own recording - the ideas take from and feed into each other. One of his very best works, and the Rachmaninoff disc that I most often play.
        [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

        Comment

        • teamsaint
          Full Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 25248

          #19
          Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
          Oooh; no, no, no, no, NO, Jayne! The Third is a complete masterpiece! Listen to the composer's own recording - the ideas take from and feed into each other. One of his very best works, and the Rachmaninoff disc that I most often play.
          is it? doesn't seem to get many outings...
          I will seek it out Ferney.
          Edit, just found a Litton/RPO version for a penny plus postage used on amazon. Still they throw in a Symphonic dances for good measure, but can't find a review anywhere....shall have to be the judge of it myself !
          Last edited by teamsaint; 12-10-12, 19:13.
          I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

          I am not a number, I am a free man.

          Comment

          • Alison
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 6488

            #20
            The Litton is a fine recording, a most worthwhile coupling. Purchase with confidence !

            I love the Third Symphony, heartwarming stuff for autumn evenings.

            Comment

            • ferneyhoughgeliebte
              Gone fishin'
              • Sep 2011
              • 30163

              #21
              Rachmaninoff conducting his Third Symphony seems NCA on CD. Here is the First movement, courtesy of youTube:



              ... and an Amazon MP3 download of all (I believe) of the composer's recordings as a conductor:

              [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

              Comment

              • jayne lee wilson
                Banned
                • Jul 2011
                • 10711

                #22
                Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                Oooh; no, no, no, no, NO, Jayne! The Third is a complete masterpiece! Listen to the composer's own recording - the ideas take from and feed into each other. One of his very best works, and the Rachmaninoff disc that I most often play.
                That does surprise me, I must admit... oh, I'll give you the scherzo/adagio 2nd movement, one of his finest creations, with a glorious Philadelphian final climax, but not even two recent live performances with Petrenko have convinced me that the emotional or structural trajectory of the outer movements is ever quite defined. Despite the close and inventive thematic relationships, the narrative course of the piece seems too often deflected or baffled, settling for too long in that lyrical episode in (i) which seems too little contrasted with the first group (similar,better handled episode in the 4th Concerto), or attempting to develop through a less than inspired fugal episode in the finale. The motto's return at the start of each movement often sounds like a too-deliberate attempt to impose a unity on a symphony whose many incidental pleasures don't for me, quite add up - despite many broadcasts, off-air tapings, CDs and those concerts.

                I've tried to see it as a juxtaposition of musical images or moods which doesn't need to round everything up or reach firm conclusions, but unlike, say Mahler's 7th it never quite gels for me (despite my enjoyment).

                I do wish that conductors would take up the 1st instead - a wonderful, underrated piece which seems to have drifted back into the shadows again...
                (And I never get tired of the Panorama theme!)

                Sorry to be rather wordy - but I tend to smile in puzzlement at the 3rd even as I enjoy it...

                Comment

                • teamsaint
                  Full Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 25248

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Alison View Post
                  The Litton is a fine recording, a most worthwhile coupling. Purchase with confidence !

                  I love the Third Symphony, heartwarming stuff for autumn evenings.
                  thats cheered me up. £1.26 on a duffer would have put a damper on what has been a decent friday ! thanks Alison.
                  Really looking forward to getting this now.
                  I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

                  I am not a number, I am a free man.

                  Comment

                  • teamsaint
                    Full Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 25248

                    #24
                    Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                    Rachmaninoff conducting his Third Symphony seems NCA on CD. Here is the First movement, courtesy of youTube:



                    ... and an Amazon MP3 download of all (I believe) of the composer's recordings as a conductor:

                    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sergej-Rachm...0071447&sr=8-7
                    The youtube is great quality for 1939.Just playing it through my new computer/stereo linky thing. magic !

                    Edit: only 403 views for that video.
                    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

                    I am not a number, I am a free man.

                    Comment

                    • EdgeleyRob
                      Guest
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 12180

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Alison View Post
                      I love the Third Symphony, heartwarming stuff for autumn evenings.
                      Me too Alison.

                      I have this set,which is a bargain http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rachmaninov-...0079943&sr=1-1

                      Might have myself a Rachmaninov day tomorrow.

                      Comment

                      • jayne lee wilson
                        Banned
                        • Jul 2011
                        • 10711

                        #26
                        Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                        Rachmaninoff conducting his Third Symphony seems NCA on CD. Here is the First movement, courtesy of youTube:



                        ... and an Amazon MP3 download of all (I believe) of the composer's recordings as a conductor:

                        http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sergej-Rachm...0071447&sr=8-7
                        The Philadelphia/Rachmaninov 3rd is available on Naxos, at Amazon (try searching under "Naxos Rachmaninov") or as a lossless/mp3 download at TCS.

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