Schoenberg's A Survivor from Warsaw

[RichardB]

I don't remember thinking that in 1959. I just didn't like the music.

I was attempting to answer smittims' post, but anyway... if you "just didn't like the music" how is that William Glock's fault?

[kernelbogey]

I was attempting to answer smittims' post, but anyway... if you "just didn't like the music" how is that William Glock's fault?

I already said that I didn't blame the BBC.

What I think I was expressing poorly in my #12 was that some aspects of music choices on the Third Programme led me to reject a lot of twentieth-century music and thus deprive myself of learning about it. Unfair to blame the BBc for that, of course, since it was my choice.

You seem to be on a mission here, Richard, so I'm bowing out of this one now.

[RichardB]

I'm very sorry, I didn't mean to be as confrontational as I no doubt sounded!

[Pulcinella]

I'm very sorry, I didn't mean to be as confrontational as I no doubt sounded!

I'm sure that there was an underlying element of 'having to solve the puzzle/find the rows' that existed, which put people off.
Ridiculous in hindsight, as you don't really need to follow the structure of a symphony's sonata-form first movement to enjoy it, any more than having to work out that of a JSB fugue.
My early exposures in the sixth form were with the Head of Physics (which might account a little for the analytical approach/suggestion), though to be fair we were encouraged simply to listen, with a few of us crowded around a pocket score. I certainly remember listening to Berg's Lyric Suite that way.

[Historian]

My early exposures in the sixth form were with the Head of Physics (which might account a little for the analytical approach/suggestion), though to be fair we were encouraged simply to listen, with a few of us crowded around a pocket score. I certainly remember listening to Berg's Lyric Suite that way.

Different worlds. Can't imagine that happening in most schools now.

It's been a very interesting discussion: would very much like to take part in a performance of 'A Survivor from Warsaw'. My appreciation of Schoenberg, Berg, Webern (among other composers of a roughly similar time period) is very patchy. However, that says more about me than about their music.

[ahinton]

There was some argument I recall that Glock's tenure at the Proms was marked by this . Not sure what the evidence if for it though but again well before my time .

Glock's legacy has, I fear, been long clouded by disproportionate and misleading assumptions. Yes, he responded appropriately and wisely to the dire need to drag BBC's music audiences into a 20th century beyond the limited one that to some degree seemed to have been accepted in UK (Sealer tried to do this well before Glock), but the suggestion that, in so doing, he habitually and determinedly sidelined certain living composers who wrote only "tonal" music simply does not stand up to detailed scrutiny. During his tenure George Lloyd's new orchestral scores were apparently returned unconsidered and Rubbra didn't far too well either but I know of no evidence that this was typical yet at the same time it is clear that, for example, Tippett, Arnold and Maw were not ignored.

[smittims]

I treasure a delightful book by Leo Black: 'The Glock era and after', which refutes most of the 'urban myths' about his tenure. I was just thinking that I wouldn't take up R3 time with George Lloyd , though I would find time for Rubbra. Just as I'd be a rotten magistrate or juror, I'd probably be a rotten Controller Radio3. Which of us can claim to be truly impartial? A recent CR3 allegedly just didn't like Havergal Brian, with predictable results.

[Petrushka]

I treasure a delightful book by Leo Black: 'The Glock era and after', which refutes most of the 'urban myths' about his tenure. I was just thinking that I wouldn't take up R3 time with George Lloyd , though I would find time for Rubbra. Just as I'd be a rotten magistrate or juror, I'd probably be a rotten Controller Radio3. Which of us can claim to be truly impartial? A recent CR3 allegedly just didn't like Havergal Brian, with predictable results.

I wouldn't have expected a R3 Controller to ban composers because they don't like them or on the principle that 'if I don't like it then it then no-one else can listen to it either' Such matters would surely be delegated downwards to others. That way impartiality is maintained.

[ahinton]

I wouldn't have expected a R3 Controller to get so involved in such mundane matters as which composers music to ban on the principle that 'if I don't like it then it then no-one else can listen to it either' so such things would be delegated downwards to others. That way impartiality is maintained.

Sure, insofar as that might go, but what instances hae you encountered when a composer's music has actally been formally banned from BBC R3's airwaves? The only case of which I am aware is that of Alan Bush who, on political grounds, had such a ban imposed on his work in the 1940s which, when Vaughan Williams responded by returning a commission contract, BBC soon relented.

[Opinionated Knowall]

Glock's legacy has, I fear, been long clouded by disproportionate and misleading assumptions... Rubbra didn't far too well either

Rubbra commissioned for the 1966 Proms by Glock (Veni creator spiritus) and again for 1980 (Symphony No 11). Not a bad strike rate...

Very good article on this: Concerts for Coteries, or Music for All? Glock's Proms Reconsidered
David Wright (not related to Roger, as far I know)
The Musical Times
Vol. 149, No. 1904 (Autumn, 2008), pp. 3-34

[Ein Heldenleben]

I wonder if some of the past mistaken assumptions about Glock arise from the fact that he had a foreign sounding name and was a a conspicuous public intellectual . He was also, an outstanding educationalist - I think he played a key role in starting the Dartington summer school . He was also a very good pianist specialising IIRC in Haydn piano trios - a commendable habit. What would the chances of some one like that being a BBC controller now ? I can answer the question - zero.

[Bryn]

I treasure a delightful book by Leo Black: 'The Glock era and after', which refutes most of the 'urban myths' about his tenure. I was just thinking that I wouldn't take up R3 time with George Lloyd , though I would find time for Rubbra. Just as I'd be a rotten magistrate or juror, I'd probably be a rotten Controller Radio3. Which of us can claim to be truly impartial? A recent CR3 allegedly just didn't like Havergal Brian, with predictable results.

Was the Boult conducted first fully professional performance of the "Gothic" not put on at the RAH and broadcast on the Third under Glock's aegis in 1966? There again, Boult was said to be unconvinced by the work, which was split into two parts (though notated as attacca!) with an interval for that performance.

[smittims]

Yes, I remember it well. The controller I was referring to (who allegedly 'didn't like' Brian) was in the early 'noughties. There were quite a few Brian premieres in the Glock era, as I recall, including the splendid Seventh under Harry Newstone. That, and the Boult 'Gothic' were my introduction to Brian's music. Of course , Bob Simpson was the prime mover of the Brian revival.

[RichardB]

I wonder if some of the past mistaken assumptions about Glock arise from the fact that he had a foreign sounding name and was a a conspicuous public intellectual . He was also, an outstanding educationalist - I think he played a key role in starting the Dartington summer school . He was also a very good pianist specialising IIRC in Haydn piano trios - a commendable habit. What would the chances of some one like that being a BBC controller now ? I can answer the question - zero.

Quite.

Also, whenever the name of Glock is mentioned it isn't long before that of George Lloyd follows. Let's be clear: no composer's "success" or "failure" in terms of performances, attention, BBC broadcasts etc., is ever the result of support or antipathy from a single individual, no matter how high their position in the musical world. And then there's often an imputation that the reason Lloyd's music has been neglected is that his music has "proper tunes" etc. etc. - well, large amounts of his orchestral music have been released on CD, much more than of many composers one might think of as being equally or more "deserving".

[Ein Heldenleben]

Quite.

Also, whenever the name of Glock is mentioned it isn't long before that of George Lloyd follows. Let's be clear: no composer's "success" or "failure" in terms of performances, attention, BBC broadcasts etc., is ever the result of support or antipathy from a single individual, no matter how high their position in the musical world. And then there's often an imputation that the reason Lloyd's music has been neglected is that his music has "proper tunes" etc. etc. - well, large amounts of his orchestral music have been released on CD, much more than of many composers one might think of as being equally or more "deserving".

Absolutely. There are so many factors determining how these things are selected - not the least of which is luck. Any decent controller would give producers a reasonably free rein in selection in any case. The only example where a “ban” appears to have worked was Britten’s Brahms aversion at the Aldeburgh festival. Since the festival was (is ) largely funded by his royalties I guess that was his privilege.