Elgar: the 2nd Symphony

[Northender]

I know this is a personal idiosyncrasy but while they are both undoubtedly English I always regard Elgar & RVW as being influenced by Wales too

Walton does not strike me like that - he Anglo-Italian

What a loss to musicology I am

Oh, I don't know.... I've learned a lot since joining the Forum. Vaughan Williams certainly paid handsome tribute to those 3 Welsh hymn tunes, don't you think?

[Pabmusic]

I can't help feeling that Elgar Nº 2 was written for commercial (bread and butter) reasons, whereas Symphony Nº 1 is an expression of Elgar himself, (I feel the same about Walton's two symphonies, but there, it is more evident) but I still enjoy Nº 2 for its craftsmanship and its exuberance.

As far as Elgar's "3rd symphony" is concerned, he didn't write one - and I'm content to leave it at that.

HS

There's something in what you say, although I'm sure Elgar would not have got much bread - let alone butter - out of it (a few short pieces like the Chanson de Matin would have achieved that). The slow movement has its roots in the 1905 death of his friend and champion Alfred Rodewald, and probably contains the deepest music as a result (Elgar is almost always best when there is human inspiration). Its origins thus pre-date the first symphony. (The German Rodewald, incidentally, was the dedicatee of P & C No. 1.)

As for the 3rd Symphony, he didn't finish it. Or, rather, he didn't write it all down - he played the whole thing to Billy Reed and Fred Gaisberg, apparently. Anthony Payne's version is most definitely not the symphony - Payne was clear about that. It's called "Edward Elgar: the sketches for Symphony No 3 elaborated by Anthony Payne" (I have a score before me as I write). Of course, no-one calls it that, though, more's the pity.

[Roehre]

....As for the 3rd Symphony, he didn't finish it. Or, rather, he didn't write it all down - he played the whole thing to Billy Reed and Fred Gaisberg, apparently. Anthony Payne's version is most definitely not the symphony - Payne was clear about that. It's called "Edward Elgar: the sketches for Symphony No 3 elaborated by Anthony Payne" (I have a score before me as I write). Of course, no-one calls it that, though, more's the pity.

Pabmusic, you know this, or this CD "A companion CD (number NMC D052) contains a recording of Elgar's complete sketches, performed by David Owen Norris on piano, Robert Gibbs playing W H Reed's own violin, and Andrew Davis conducting the BBC Symphony Orchestra, with Anthony Payne providing a detailed commentary on the reconstruction process" ? Revelatory I must say.

[Serial_Apologist]

I know this is a personal idiosyncrasy but while they are both undoubtedly English I always regard Elgar & RVW as being influenced by Wales too

Walton does not strike me like that - he Anglo-Italian

What a loss to musicology I am

Subtle, that...

Not sure I agree about Wales, Ams - I'm probably missing the point here - but, knowing Walton's penchant for hob-nobbing with the 'arry stockracy, had he settled in Italy instead of hanging out with the Sitwells in the '20s I could well see him enjoying the company of Respighi, Malipiero and Casella, and them all together toasting Mussolini down the local trattoria. He could easily have composed a pastiche "Crown Imperial alla Feste Romana" to top Respy's.

[Pabmusic]

Pabmusic, you know this, or this CD "A companion CD (number NMC D052) contains a recording of Elgar's complete sketches, performed by David Owen Norris on piano, Robert Gibbs playing W H Reed's own violin, and Andrew Davis conducting the BBC Symphony Orchestra, with Anthony Payne providing a detailed commentary on the reconstruction process" ? Revelatory I must say.

I've got the 'companion CD' and it's fascinating. There's a booklet by Payne as well, which goes into even greater detail:

http://www.faber.co.uk/work/elgars-third-symphony/9780571195381/

[Roehre]

I've got the 'companion CD' and it's fascinating. There's a booklet by Payne as well, which goes into even greater detail:
http://www.faber.co.uk/work/elgars-t...9780571195381/

Indeed, fascinating reading too. I bought the book(let) and the 2 NMC CDs as soon as these were published - much cherished I must say.

[verismissimo]

How about letting the music do the talking ?

I don't mind a bit of chat. Problem is when it outstays its welcome - a point which I always recognise unerringly, but musicians sometimes seem less attuned to...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Oi!!! What's wrong with RVW 2?

It's never really "sparked" with me; although (ironically perhaps in this context), the excerpts I've heard from Elder's recent recording with the Hallé might do what I've been hoping from Boult (X2), Handley, Barbirolli, Previn and Haitink all these years.

I also should have added RVW #7, which I think is a vastly under-appreciated and misrepresented masterpiece! (But I still prefer Elgar #2).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I can't help feeling that Elgar Nº 2 was written for commercial (bread and butter) reasons, whereas Symphony Nº 1 is an expression of Elgar himself, but I still enjoy Nº 2 for its craftsmanship and its exuberance.

Oh but the sense of loss at the end of the Second - which sounds so much more "authentic" to me than the noisy end of the First - the gentle lyricism of the Finale's main theme: this sort of writing only occurs in the First Symphony in the magnificent Slow Movement. And the fury of the Scherzo of the Second Symph - these are surely "expressions of Elgar himself". And the arching, aching melody at the start of the Slow Movement; and the defiant syncopations at the start of the Second Symphony (and those life-affirming Horn whoops: he wrote them for you, HS! ) and how this opening mood is just lost by the end of the work. So much more than just "commercial (bread-and-butter)" motivation here: it's the whole man himself!

[BBMmk2]

This symphony I think, is one of the best bya British composer. To say it's the greatest, by a British composer, is so,methimng quite contreversial.It's certtainly 'up there' in the top 5, but number one,who knows?

It seems to me like a requiem, for an end of an era.

[Serial_Apologist]

I still think the very ending of Elgar 2 strongly echoes that of "Tristan und Isolde" - though I was thoroughly taken to task for saying so on the old BBC forum.

[salymap]

Requiem for the end of an era. Well put BBM.

It's so easy to feel one knew Elgar, He died when I was four years old, but the Worcester Three Choirs festivals in the 1950s, the Birthplace, when the elderly lady in charge knew him and Carice visited her while I was there........ I'm glad I saw and heard that when I could travel about a bit.
I think I love his two symphonies equally, although they are quite different.

While my friend and I were visiting the Birthplace an American visitor claimed the lady's attention and she left us, saying we could look at anything. In the Study we found a fascinating box of letters to Elgar from various well-known musicians. When she came back we were told they were for Diana McVegh, not for us to read. Ah well.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It seems to me like a requiem, for an end of an era.

Yes, and dedicated to the memory of Edward VII.

But there's also a more personal loss, too: the way the breezy scherzo turns into a Dies Irae - Brrrrr!

[Flay]

I have heard it said that Elgar had bipolar disorder. I suspect this is relevant to this discussion about the 2nd, which I am about to listen to for the first time, while walking the dogs, encouraged by the above. It has been on my ipod for 4 years without an airing

As Northy has said, we stand to gain much from this MB.

[Mandryka]

I'm wondering whether a convincing explanation has ever been given for its underwhelming reception at its premiere (in front of the famous 'stuffed pigs' audience)?

It's not like it's a 'difficult' work, or without hummable tunes.....and it's recognisably by the same man who wrote the all-conquering 1st.