Elgar: the 2nd Symphony

[Guest]

At a Halle concert at Lichfield cathedral last week, Mark Elder - in a pre-symphony 'talkette' - described this as 'the greatest symphony ever written...'

(dramatic pause)

'....by an Englishman.'





So: an extravagant claim was suddenly reduced to a (very) modest one; and all with a little elipsis.


Seriously, though: does anyone agree? I can't decide whether I do or not, English composers not really being that much my bag....

[Serial_Apologist]

At a Halle concert at Lichfield cathedral last week, Mark Elder - in a pre-symphony 'talkette' - described this as 'the greatest symphony ever written...'

(dramatic pause)

'....by an Englishman.'





So: an extravagant claim was suddenly reduced to a (very) modest one; and all with a little elipsis.


Seriously, though: does anyone agree? I can't decide whether I do or not, English composers not really being that much my bag....

There's not an awful lot that's English in this symphony in any case - if by "English" you are referring to the folk melodies and neo-modalism in Vaughan Williams and Holst, for example - but quite a bit of Brahms, Wagner and Strauss. I think it's a great symphony - certainly a powerful one but I certainly wouldn't rate it higher than, for example, VW's Sea Symphony or Nos 4 and 5.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

"By an Englishman"? I'm inclined to agree, although it is very difficult to know which aesthetic criteria can be used to demonstrate why (or even how) Elgar Two is greater than RVWs 3-6,
and 9; Simpson's; Tippett; Rubbra; PMD et al. (including Elgar One!). I certainly wouldn't want to be without RVW #5, and would be equally "inclined" to agree with any similar comment about that work.

I'm just grateful there is such magnificent Music and leave the "Guinessing" to those performers who would be better occupied "just" playing it!

[Alison]

I do loathe Sir Mark Elder talkettes.

How about letting the music do the talking ?

[Petrushka]

Contemporary with Sibelius 4 and Mahler 9, the Elgar 2 is worthy, indeed more than worthy to be considered with them whether written by an Englishman or an
Eskimo. There is little specifically English in the work anyway apart from the Shelley quote at the head of the score and inscription 'Tintagel' at another point.

I leave every performance, live or recorded, convinced that I have heard one of the very greatest of all symphonies. It's a work of genius!

[EdgeleyRob]

It's a work of genius!

'nuff said.

[pastoralguy]

I do loathe Sir Mark Elder talkettes.

How about letting the music do the talking ?

Stephan Denueve is about to leave the RSNO for better things. Although I admire his musicianship, he too is a great one for chunter before a concert starts.

JUST GET ON WITH IT...

[Flay]

is greater than RVWs 3-6

Oi!!! What's wrong with RVW 2?

[Roehre]

Contemporary with Sibelius 4 and Mahler 9, the Elgar 2 is worthy, indeed more than worthy to be considered with them whether written by an Englishman or an
Eskimo. There is little specifically English in the work anyway apart from the Shelley quote at the head of the score and inscription 'Tintagel' at another point.

I leave every performance, live or recorded, convinced that I have heard one of the very greatest of all symphonies. It's a work of genius!

Work of genius it certainly is.
But compared to Sibelius 4 and Mahler 9 I'm afraid there is some truth in Elder's talkette.....
Compared to these Elgar 2 is a work of the past, Sibelius 4 and even more Mahler 9 are looking to the future.
In musical terms: structurally, melodically, harmonically.
In context-of-history terms: the end of an era.

[Vile Consort]

All this talking before and during concerts is being done BECAUSE YOU LIKE IT. How dare you complain?

[cloughie]

"By an Englishman"? I'm inclined to agree, although it is very difficult to know which aesthetic criteria can be used to demonstrate why (or even how) Elgar Two is greater than RVWs 3-6,
and 9; Simpson's; Tippett; Rubbra; PMD et al. (including Elgar One!). I certainly wouldn't want to be without RVW #5, and would be equally "inclined" to agree with any similar comment about that work.

I'm just grateful there is such magnificent Music and leave the "Guinessing" to those performers who would be better occupied "just" playing it!

I prefer 1 to 2 but either is vastly prefereable to Payne's 3!

[Mandryka]

I do loathe Sir Mark Elder talkettes.

How about letting the music do the talking ?

I can entirely understand why some people don't like them, but - as a non-musician and a not-quite Elgarian, I rather appreciated Sir ME's (very few) words. He might have said something about how the Symphony left its first audience feeling non-plussed, but that might have been asking for trouble.....

[salymap]

And if we must have these little lists, surely WALTON symphony no 1 is worthy of being in the top half dozen?

[Pabmusic]

Work of genius it certainly is.
But compared to Sibelius 4 and Mahler 9 I'm afraid there is some truth in Elder's talkette.....
Compared to these Elgar 2 is a work of the past, Sibelius 4 and even more Mahler 9 are looking to the future.
In musical terms: structurally, melodically, harmonically.
In context-of-history terms: the end of an era.

Is it really true that Sibelius 4 or Mahler 9 "look to the future" in any meaningful way, other than that they can provide obvious links to later 20th Century music? But that's only obvious to us because we can view them historically.

Neither Elgar symphony can really be seen as belonging to a school, or beginning or continuing a movement (in fact, the same could be said of any work of Elgar's); by your criterion of looking to the future, they are therefore of the past. 'End-of-an-era' even, since we know what came later. But what is the relevance of that? Is it a negative quality - couldn't one say much the same about Mozart and Brahms? Elgar's great works belong comfortably in a similar sound-world with Strauss, Mahler, Suk, early Schoenberg, early Bartok and others, but they are no more like them than they are like each other. Elgar was a one-off, who doesn't easily fit in anywhere - which has rather contributed to his being musical Marmite.

[Northender]

0850: Thinking about it: Elgar's 2nd is (as Delboy would say) my most favourite symphony.
0852: Thinking some more: No, Sibelius's 5th.
0854: Vaughan Williams's 6th
0856: Mozart's 39th
0858: Sorry - I've changed ny mind (again): Shostakovitch's 5th
0900: Brahms's 2nd
0902: Sorry - another rethink - Mahler's 6th
0904: Final answer: Nielsen's 3rd
0906: (Sorry, just phoned a friend to confirm what I suspected all along): Elgar's 1st
0915: No..it was always Elgar's 2nd. How could I have ever thought oherwise?
0916: Hang on a mo....
EDIT
0922: Of course - how could I have overlooked Walton's 1st...