BBC SCOTTISH play Ives, Bartok and Dvorak. Friday June 22nd at 1930

[salymap]

Live from Glasgow City Hall

Ives - Three Places in New England
Bartok - Violin concerto No 2
INTERVAL
Dvorak - Symphony Nº 9 in E minor (from the New World)

BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra
Jennifer Koh (violin)
Matthias Pintscher (conductor).

Not too keen on Ives, myself, but the Bartok violin concerto is a splendid piece and, as a horn player, how could I not listen to a symphony which (in the last movement) is a buttocks-clencher for any Principal Horn?

Please join me next Friday on Radio 3. I have friends in that orchestra.

HS

Heads up for tonight's apparently live concert from the Glasgow City Halls. I hope we can all listen with as little physical discomfort as possible.

[Hornspieler]

Heads up for tonight's apparently live concert from the Glasgow City Halls. I hope we can all listen with as little physical discomfort as possible.

Sorry Sal but my head has dropped onto my knees listening to this Dvorak. Sloppy playing, not helped by very wayward tempi. Apalling intonation in the upper woodwind. Careless trumpet playing in the 1st movement.
I don't like that 1st repeat - the 1st-time bar seems weak in comparison with what has just gone before, but at least, I thought, it gives them a second chance to get things right.

What has the conductor done to this fine orchestra? They sound like an untidy rabble in places. The violins sound shrill, the brass laboured and I fear for the poor first horn, whose acid test comes at any moment now.

In the first part of the concert, the audience showed what they thought of the Ives by their watery applause but at least the violin soloist gave a superb display of technical virtuousity in that most difficult Bartok concerto.

Here comes that nasty horn passage now. Good luck, pal. ....... Well done, David Flack! Just as it should be played!

SACK the woodwind!" Has anyone got a tuning fork?

HS

[pastoralguy]

We were going to drive to Glasgow tonite for this concert. So glad we didn't, especially as our last concert with the BBCSSO involved the Dvorak clarinet concerto with some guy scraping an inaudible 'cello.

[Tony Halstead]

Hmmm... HS... please give blame where blame is due!
I'm sad to see ( HEAR!) that as far as orchestral BALANCE is concerned, nothing has changed in the BBC Scottish SO since I played with them nearly 50 years ago!
The poor woodwind section don't have a chance ( and didn't back then in the 1960s under the kindly ears of Jimmy Loughran) ) to get their intonation sorted out because of the desperately, LUDICROUSLY WEAK cello and double bass departments of this potentially superb but fatally flawed orchestra.
As we know, a wind and brass section can only tune their chords to the bass line; if that bass line is inaudible what can they ( wind and brass) do?

[Vile Consort]

Ah - it wasn't just me then. I was listening to the Dvorak whilst driving home and thought it sounded terribly scrappy.

[Tony Halstead]

Just for clarification: when I said ( wrote) 'the poor woodwind section' I didn't mean 'the POOR ( quality!) woodwind section...!
Rather, the 'poor' - as in 'pitiable' woodwind section!

As we now seem to have focussed on the various qualities and ( inevitable ) defects of the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra as unfortunately highlighted by this topical broadcast concert, it might be an opportune moment for me to recall my own rather strange experience of conducting this wonderful but rather 'maverick' orchestra:
Nearly 20 years ago I 'stepped in' to replace an indisposed conductor, with a decent, reasonable 1 month's notice, taking over a studio recording of an interesting programme of Rawsthorne, Wordsworth and Pitfield.
During even the first hour of the rehearsal I sensed that 'all was not well' with this orchestra, since the leader ( a very fine player) simply refused to play Thomas Pitfield's violin solo in the 'correct' octave as specified, opting to play it an octave lower 'to make it easier'...!
I phoned Tom Pitfield that evening, and he was flabbergasted, pointing out that in an earlier broadcast of his piece, the 'veteran' leader of the BBC Northern (now BBC Philharmonic) Reginald Stead had played that violin solo at the correct pitch without any problem or comment!

NEXT: the BBCSSO's otherwise excellent and superb 1st trumpet simply refused to play a short 12-note tune by Pitfield 'muted' as the score specified... when I asked him why he wasn't using a mute, he replied 'because I don't want to'...!
The woodwind section played superbly but definitely needed help from the string bass department - help that simply wasn't forthcoming.

Oh dear..oh dear...
Anyway, we got through this ( very slight) Pitfield piece without any further accident or injury and the orchestra then proceeded to play wonderfully and beautifully in the Rawsthorne ( Violin concerto - Rebecca Hirsch) and William Wordsworth Symphony.
The recording of the concert was broadcast on radio 3 and I thought the Wordsworth in particular revealed itself to be a 'minor masterpiece'.

BUT - oh dear oh dear again - I had somehow 'blotted my copy book' as I had - during the rehearsals - dared to criticise the orchestra's cello and bass sections... and I had also dared to suggest that the Wordsworth slow movement might benefit from a quicker tempo or even a few judicious 'cuts'!

Needless to say, I haven't been invited back to the BBCSSO ( thank goodness.!)

[Pabmusic]

Sorry Sal but my head has dropped onto my knees listening to this Dvorak. Sloppy playing, not helped by very wayward tempi. Apalling intonation in the upper woodwind. Careless trumpet playing in the 1st movement.

I don't like that 1st repeat - the 1st-time bar seems weak in comparison with what has just gone before, but at least, I thought, it gives them a second chance to get things right.

What has the conductor done to this fine orchestra? They sound like an untidy rabble in places. The violins sound shrill, the brass laboured and I fear for the poor first horn, whose acid test comes at any moment now...

I find it difficult do disagree; it's a disappointment, really. (I don't actually agree about the repeat, but I do about the rest.)

I suppose it's possible they all fell into the trap of concentrating too much on the Ives (and maybe on the Bartok) because the New World is so familiar. But intonation is such a basic thing.

[Nick Armstrong]

This has turned into a rather disheartening thread! I was looking forward to the BBCSSO performing VW 4, 5 & 6 under Andrew Manze at the Proms... Is he going to be able to do anything with them?!?

[salymap]

And I couldn't make head or the Ives, mostly because of tinnitus, but intended to listen to the remainder in the morning.

No-one has mentioned the Bartok, in my day THE violin concerto by him. Very fond of that but, having read all the above, glad I went to bed really early and shan't bother today.

[amateur51]

Just for clarification: when I said ( wrote) 'the poor woodwind section' I didn't mean 'the POOR ( quality!) woodwind section...!
Rather, the 'poor' - as in 'pitiable' woodwind section!

As we now seem to have focussed on the various qualities and ( inevitable ) defects of the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra as unfortunately highlighted by this topical broadcast concert, it might be an opportune moment for me to recall my own rather strange experience of conducting this wonderful but rather 'maverick' orchestra:
Nearly 20 years ago I 'stepped in' to replace an indisposed conductor, with a decent, reasonable 1 month's notice, taking over a studio recording of an interesting programme of Rawsthorne, Wordsworth and Pitfield.
During even the first hour of the rehearsal I sensed that 'all was not well' with this orchestra, since the leader ( a very fine player) simply refused to play Thomas Pitfield's violin solo in the 'correct' octave as specified, opting to play it an octave lower 'to make it easier'...!
I phoned Tom Pitfield that evening, and he was flabbergasted, pointing out that in an earlier broadcast of his piece, the 'veteran' leader of the BBC Northern (now BBC Philharmonic) Reginald Stead had played that violin solo at the correct pitch without any problem or comment!

NEXT: the BBCSSO's otherwise excellent and superb 1st trumpet simply refused to play a short 12-note tune by Pitfield 'muted' as the score specified... when I asked him why he wasn't using a mute, he replied 'because I don't want to'...!
The woodwind section played superbly but definitely needed help from the string bass department - help that simply wasn't forthcoming.

Oh dear..oh dear...
Anyway, we got through this ( very slight) Pitfield piece without any further accident or injury and the orchestra then proceeded to play wonderfully and beautifully in the Rawsthorne ( Violin concerto - Rebecca Hirsch) and William Wordsworth Symphony.
The recording of the concert was broadcast on radio 3 and I thought the Wordsworth in particular revealed itself to be a 'minor masterpiece'.

BUT - oh dear oh dear again - I had somehow 'blotted my copy book' as I had - during the rehearsals - dared to criticise the orchestra's cello and bass sections... and I had also dared to suggest that the Wordsworth slow movement might benefit from a quicker tempo or even a few judicious 'cuts'!

Needless to say, I haven't been invited back to the BBCSSO ( thank goodness.!)

Thanks for an interesting post, waldhorn

The unprofessional behaviour that you describe is surprising (to me) and intolerable (for you) and disrespectful (to the composer). Could it be that it is not just audiences that respond to the celebrity factor, do you think?

[Hornspieler]

I find it difficult do disagree; it's a disappointment, really. (I don't actually agree about the repeat, but I do about the rest.)

I suppose it's possible they all fell into the trap of concentrating too much on the Ives (and maybe on the Bartok) because the New World is so familiar. But intonation is such a basic thing.

I really can't imagine any professional orchestra not able to give a good account of the New World Symphony without even needing to rehearse.

Waldhorn is quite right about the cellos and bases poor intonation (the final note of the second movement gave ample evidence of that) but, since it is the 1st oboe who gives the A that the orchestra tunes to, there is no excuse for the flutes and piccolo (who are sitting right next door) to be playing excrutiatingly sharp.

Well, at least the audience did not have to pay for their tickets.

HS

[amateur51]

Well, at least the audience did not have to pay for their tickets.

Maybe that was music to their ears

[Pabmusic]

I really can't imagine any professional orchestra not able to give a good account of the New World Symphony without even needing to rehearse.

You are, of course, absolutely right.