BBC Young Musician of the Year Finals - BBC Four

[french frank]

I'd also be interested to know what MrGG thinks of the latest 'fashion'(?) for exams (GCSE to degree level) in Music Technology. Where is this supposed to lead? It sounds like the equivalent of sociology (in my day), media studies/cultural studies five or so years ago: i.e. something you'll find jolly interesting but it won't prepare you for what you probably want to do. Or does it? And are there that many opportunities afterwards?

[Pegleg]

Good questions FF. As an interested bystander in this debate, I have some sympathy with the opinions voiced in that Independent article. Even after taking off rose tinted glasses and suppressing my grumpy old man routine, I wonder if we really want to bring up denaissance man.

For anyone who has had dealings with say physics and mathematics education at either end of the last 30 years to argue there has not been a dumbing down in our prizes for all league table GCSE/A level system stretches my credulity and patience.

Are we to believe that none of these negative influences have impacted on what goes in the teaching of music in schools today?

[MrGongGong]

I'd also be interested to know what MrGG thinks of the latest 'fashion'(?) for exams (GCSE to degree level) in Music Technology. Where is this supposed to lead? It sounds like the equivalent of sociology (in my day), media studies/cultural studies five or so years ago: i.e. something you'll find jolly interesting but it won't prepare you for what you probably want to do. Or does it? And are there that many opportunities afterwards?

My views about "music technology" are not that it's not got application. To be "realistic' given that more or less ALL music making uses "music technology" these days whether it's the skill to record your HIPP ensemble or make multimedia content for your chamber choir website. If you want to get a "job" in music then you stand much more of a chance going the technology route than studying pure music.

I DO feel , however, that there is far too much emphasis in education on "where it leads" which dissuades youngsters from studying aspects of music that seem to be "irrelevant" (speaks a man with a degree that involved transcribing Vietnamese funeral music !).

"Music Technology" has become a subject for those who are passionate about music but not super talented singers or players and sadly is seen as a bit of a "soft"option which is a shame as one wouldn't think that Jonathan Harvey uses technology as an alternative to "real" musical instruments.

Suffolks comment seems to refer to the Music Tech courses which DO have more "point" that analysing Brahms symphonies if that's what you are after !

[Suffolkcoastal]

My point is this course is now the only music one offered for a High School of around 1000 pupils, one of only 3 in my town. If I had been faced with this option I'd have probably given up music altogether and maybe even lost my interest in it. There is no instrumental tuition available either at that age unless families can afford it. If some children are generally interested in music outside of this sort of technology course than what options do they have. If the family has money they may be able to go elsewhere if not, then perhaps a number of potentially budding musicians could be put off for life.

[MrGongGong]

My point is this course is now the only music one offered for a High School of around 1000 pupils, one of only 3 in my town. If I had been faced with this option I'd have probably given up music altogether and maybe even lost my interest in it. There is no instrumental tuition available either at that age unless families can afford it. If some children are generally interested in music outside of this sort of technology course than what options do they have. If the family has money they may be able to go elsewhere if not, then perhaps a number of potentially budding musicians could be put off for life.

sadly this is what the government (both this lot and the last !) have done
academy schools don't have to teach the NC
Free schools don't even have to employ qualified teachers
when the Henley (NOT Don but Darren from CFM) review of music education was published how many people made a fuss about it ?
when the National Plan Was published how many people "welcomed it" and will live to regret it ?

Sadly, some of us have been trying to say these things
but sadly it's a bit too late , many of those who were "welcoming" of the NPME are now seeing the things that they value being dismantled

I've recently been to schools where there is NO music, it's not deemed to be "relevant" ....... actually almost the only type of course that WILL survive in these schools is Music Tech as it does have a "vocational" focus.
I'm afraid this is what you get when you allow idiots to be in charge , and don't for one moment think that it is universally (NOTE "Universally" ) better in the private sector............

many school still have excellent music departments but the idea of access to music for all pupils as a matter of entitlement has gone.........

[Pegleg]

Oh God, this all sounds so depressing.

The NPME is available online at http://www.musiceducationuk.com/read-the-plan/ if you are so inclined to read it. Making sense of the formal eduspeak is a challenge for the uninitiated in modern verbiage. After a quick skim through the 55 pages of guff, the crux of the matter from the pupils perspective seems to be encapsulated in the “blue arrow”, onwards and rightwards so to speak ( Wouldn't it have been better to have the diagram pointing up? ..) , on page 18: progression of music education. It reminds me of another blue streak that was a complete failure.

It's 55 years since I entered formal Education attending my bog standard local LCC school in South London. During the years of what is now known as KS1 and KS2 I had fun playing triangle, tambourine and drums with other kids but never got my hands on the glockenspiel. Boys danced with girls country style to the sounds of the a BBC radio schools programme and I sang briefly in the school's junior choir which appeared at the Methodist Central Hall in Tooting on occasion. I even mastered playing the Z cars theme and London's burning on the recorder. I could whistle a tune and sing along to the radio before I ever started school ,so I took this all for granted. It was just part of going to school, a fun apart.

But at secondary school things were different, life as getting more serious with piles of home work. Learning an instrument was for the few with talent and interest. There didn't seem much time for music for the rest. Except the one thing that bound us together five days a week, a right royal sing song in morning assembly. Yes, I kept singing for another seven years. But it's only been weddings, christenings, funerals and the bath since.

So what's the point of this ramble off into the sunset? Only to say in the intervening half-century, in this land of plenty, what exactly have we been doing in the musical education of our youngsters?

The NPME puts touching faith in the nebulous concept of music hubs which amongst other things are expected to deliver: “weekly learning of instruments through Whole Class ensembles for a minimum of a term (but ideally a year) for every child aged 5-18”. Unless I've misread it, that's one whole term in 13 years of school attendance. How paltry.

[MrGongGong]

did you get to the maths ?
all this nonsense about "Sistema" style projects (which have dubious foundation in the UK ) with 40% less money ...........

[french frank]

My views about "music technology" are not that it's not got application [...]

Thanks for the reply, MrGG. I wasn't sure whether such courses were about producing technicians for the recording industry, creative recording ('effects') or as a primary function of composing.

[french frank]

all this nonsense about "Sistema" style projects (which have dubious foundation in the UK ) with 40% less money ...........

Don't really agree with that. They may have a different function but the general educational and behavioural benefits suggest they have considerable value. One could argue, perhaps, that they shouldn't be provided out of a dedicated music budget, but I'm not sure that they are(?).

Pegleg's 'ramble' puts me in mind of the country life depicted in 'Under the Greenwood Tree': in other words, there was a time when relatively uneducated young people learned to play traditional instruments without state provided lessons.

Perhaps the quid pro quo is that children nowadays have masses more options and opportunities. The performance of music (and probably composition too) is one that's lost out. Music is now just another consumer commodity for most people. The development of the recording industry has had its downside.

[Pegleg]

... the quid pro quo ...

Apart from the late night typos, I left out a curical bit (it's my age you know). This should have read ...

So what's the point of this ramble off into the sunset? Only to say in the intervening half-century, in this land of plenty, what exactly have we been doing in the musical education of our youngsters? What have we gained and what have we lost?

Mine was far from a country life, but there was a cetain innocence that's lost to the modern generation.

Music is now just another consumer commodity for most people

This is the killer ... Time to ramble off, I think.

[MrGongGong]

Don't really agree with that. They may have a different function but the general educational and behavioural benefits suggest they have considerable value. One could argue, perhaps, that they shouldn't be provided out of a dedicated music budget, but I'm not sure that they are(?).
.

Sadly I know too much to believe the hype around these things !
The NPME made a lot of noise about the "In harmony" projects without really examining how they have "really" been working.
Politicians love these as they have youngsters playing "real" instruments etc but the methodology is fundamentally flawed IMV (and it's probably too OT to go into precisely why)............ In Venezuela the Sistema programmes have been a massive success and I know several people who have been and worked there BUT Liverpool isn't Venezuela.

[french frank]

Sadly I know too much to believe the hype around these things !
The NPME made a lot of noise about the "In harmony" projects without really examining how they have "really" been working.
Politicians love these as they have youngsters playing "real" instruments etc but the methodology is fundamentally flawed IMV (and it's probably too OT to go into precisely why)............ In Venezuela the Sistema programmes have been a massive success and I know several people who have been and worked there BUT Liverpool isn't Venezuela.

But that skates round the point I was making: I haven't read the hype about the purely musical value of the schemes; I mentioned 'the general educational and behavioural benefits'.

'The document says that “in two and a half years the projects have started to show the benefits of intensive music tuition as a method of narrowing the gap between children from deprived backgrounds and their peers, in terms of attitude, aspiration, attainment and behaviour.” '

It may be disappointing that it is 'using music' in this way, but that's why I said the schemes shouldn't take financial and teaching resources from pure music education.

[MrGongGong]

But that skates round the point I was making: I haven't read the hype about the purely musical value of the schemes; I mentioned 'the general educational and behavioural benefits'.

'The document says that “in two and a half years the projects have started to show the benefits of intensive music tuition as a method of narrowing the gap between children from deprived backgrounds and their peers, in terms of attitude, aspiration, attainment and behaviour.” '

It may be disappointing that it is 'using music' in this way, but that's why I said the schemes shouldn't take financial and teaching resources from pure music education.

To which the answer is "no shit Sherlock"

So they are really telling me that having an intensive , individualised educational experience will have a big effect on young people ?
I never knew that
Tell me something else I didn't know ........... people gain benefits from learning an instrument that aren't just confined to music ? wow , groundbreaking stuff this

I was talking about the whole thing as well........

(this is maybe a bit too OT and "niche" ?)

These projects in the new NPME will take resources from music education.....
and there's the whole thing of modelling your experience solely orchestral music (not that I think that there's anything wrong with orchestral music)
which is more than a little dubious as it presents (as with the rather naff "Musical Futures" that lots of schools have adopted) a single vision of musicking.

and ............

the whole "only classical music will save you" nonsense ..........? about as credible as "The Mozart Effect"

[french frank]

As my late uncle used to say when disgruntled: 'End of chat.'

[MrGongGong]

As my late uncle used to say when disgruntled: 'End of chat.'

which kind of reenforces the point that no-one REALLY gives a toss
aaah well back to the symphony