Blood, guts, sex, bulls and smugglers

[amateur51]

If we're talking about distasteful, Verdi's "Il Trovatore" takes some beating.

Give me Poulenc's Dialogues des Carmélites every time

At least the issues are clear cut!


I'll get me coat!

[Flosshilde]

Cosi fan Tutte is pretty distasteful too.

I've never understood why Cosi is considered to be misogynist (& the Magic Flute not), & I certainly don't think it's 'distasteful' (whatever that might mean). It always seems to me to be extremely moral.

[Bert Coules]

I think there's a danger in some cases of ascribing to the work the quality or attitude of one or more of the characters within it. To take just one example, the Speaker in The Magic Flute is sneering about the trustworthiness of women ("You take a woman's tears for truth?" - which drew booing from the audience at one performance I went to) but that doesn't mean that the piece itself, or Schikaneder, or Mozart, shares or endorses that view.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

In Mozart's other operas, the women are generally trustworthy and honourable.

[Flosshilde]

I think there's a danger in some cases of ascribing to the work the quality or attitude of one or more of the characters within it. To take just one example, the Speaker in The Magic Flute is sneering about the trustworthiness of women ("You take a woman's tears for truth?" - which drew booing from the audience at one performance I went to) but that doesn't mean that the piece itself, or Schikaneder, or Mozart, shares or endorses that view.

I quite agree, in general, but I think in the case of the Flute the whole tenor of the piece is missogynist - it is about the triumph of rationality against superstition - light against dark - & this has always been used as a means of attacking women (I should add that I don't believe that women are any more irrational than men). The 'rational' Sarrastro has abducted the daughter of the 'irrational' Queen of the Night, who is ultimately defeated in her attempt to rescue her. Its connections (real or imaginary) with the Freemasons underlines the missogyny.

I would agree with Alpen that women are generally trustworthy & honourable in Mozart's operas - & I think that applies to Dorabella and Fiordiligi in Cosi. It's the men who are underhand.

[Simon]

I don't believe that women are any more irrational than men.

Well, some aren't! Do you think they can reverse into parking spaces as well as men can, too?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Well, Frau Alpensinfonie can reverse park with confidence. I rely on parking sensors.

[Bert Coules]

I quite agree, in general, but I think in the case of the Flute the whole tenor of the piece is misogynist...

I tentatively suggest that if that were really the case Pamina wouldn't be characterised the way she is, and certainly wouldn't be allowed to face the tests and then ultimately invited to join the enlightened fellowship alongside Tamino. Surely she's presented as being in every way his equal?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I tentatively suggest that if that were really the case Pamina wouldn't be characterised the way she is, and certainly wouldn't be allowed to face the tests and then ultimately invited to join the enlightened fellowship alongside Tamino. Surely she's presented as being in every way his equal?

This is true. It's simply that Sarastro happens to be the good guy and the Queen of the Night is a latter-day Dolores Umbridge, that gives the impression of sexism.

[Flosshilde]

This is true. It's simply that Sarastro happens to be the good guy

I would question that. I don't think it would be much of a distortion (or indeed any distortion at all) if a production portrayed him as a leader of a religious (or any other) cult that had abducted & brainwashed Pamina.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I would question that. I don't think it would be much of a distortion (or indeed any distortion at all) if a production portrayed him as a leader of a religious (or any other) cult that had abducted & brainwashed Pamina.

A fair point, Flosshilde.

[amateur51]

Well, some aren't! Do you think they can reverse into parking spaces as well as men can, too?

Ah the old verities! Are we planning to offer an Award for Sexist Post of the Year, in which case I'll make a note of this ome.

I'd always understood that many women had fallen for that old male lie that what is manifestly 5 inches is in fact 8 inches, hence their problems with spatial judgements

[Bert Coules]

I would question that. I don't think it would be much of a distortion (or indeed any distortion at all) if a production portrayed him as a leader of a religious (or any other) cult that had abducted & brainwashed Pamina.

I'd say that it would run counter to both the text and the tenor of the music - can you really hear coercion in Pamina's undertaking of the trials? - but yes, it could certainly be done. In fact, the same approach could be made with pretty much any drama (sung or otherwise) that you care to name. And is.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

But with Mozart's glorious music, it would be possible to brainwash the audience into thinking that abduction was OK. In fact that it preceisely what the opera does.

[Bert Coules]

You say abduction, I say rescue...

Is there any record of what Schikaneder's intentions actually were, I wonder?