Schubert's 7th

[cloughie]

Only for the B minor (Unfinished and Great C major Symphonies, Bbm: Numbers 1 - 6 are "as shown".


(That is, of course, until somebody finds a Symphony written between Nos 3 & 4 in Scunthorpe Library, or a Manuscript of No 2 that pre-dates No 1! )

I suppose it would be when he visited the town seeking inspiration, there is a theory that Schone Mullerin was about steel mills.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

And while we're at it, perhaps we could renumber Mahler's symphonies - 1 to 11, with Das Lied ve der Erde as no. 9.

[JFLL]

And while we're at it, perhaps we could renumber Mahler's symphonies - 1 to 11, with Das Lied ve der Erde as no. 9.

Bruckner's number '00' is slightly ridiculous for another reason, given that '00' is what appears on the doors of loos in old-fashioned German hotels. (Or is it a comment on the quality of the symphony? I don't know, since I've bever heard it.) And I take it nobody would be for '-1' ?

[Pabmusic]

That's torn it, Pabs - I can hear that lot from Pedant Corner sharpening their nibs

Cat out of the bag, Ams?

[Pabmusic]

And while we're at it, perhaps we could renumber Mahler's symphonies - 1 to 11, with Das Lied ve der Erde as no. 9.

[Pabmusic]

Or is it? Should we perhaps consider returning the Great C major to its former home of "no. 7" as it is the 7th complete symphony? I would prefer to keep the 1-9 numbering as we do have a viable no. 7. Of course, we could go the other way and renumber them 1-10, or 1-11.

I wouldn't agree that we've got a 'viable' no. 7 - have you seen the original?

However, how about a novel numbering system, based on - say - Fibonacci numbers. Symphonies 0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, 233, 377 (that should cover the fragments).

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

However, how about a novel numbering system, based on - say - Fibonacci numbers. Symphonies 0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, 233, 377 (that should cover the fragments).

Let's do the same with Mozart's symphonies. (I did consider sending this one out on 1st April, but I was away on holiday at the time:

1 in E flat K.16
2 in D K.19
3 in F K.19a
4 in B flat K.22
5 in C K.35
6 in D K.38
7 in F K.43
8 in D K.45
9 in G K.45a “Old Lambach”
10 in G K.46b
11 in D K.48
12 in D K.62a
13 in C K.73
14 in G K.74
15 in D K.87/74a
16 in D minor K.118/74c
17 in G K.110/75b
18 in D K.120/111a
19 in F K.112
20 in A K.114
21 in G K.124
22 in C K.128
23 in G K.129
24 in F K.130
25 in E flat K.132
26 in D K.133
27 in A K.134
28 in D K.135
29 in D K.161 & 163 /141a
30 in E flat K.184/161a
31 in G K.199/161b
32 in C K.162
33 in D K.181/162b
34 in B flat K.182/173dA
35 in G minor K.183/173dB
36 in A K.201/186a
37 in D K.202/186b
38 in D K.203/189b
39 in C K.200/189k
40 in D K.121/207a
41 in D K.204/213a
42 in C K.102/213c
43 in D (from “Haffner” Serenade) K.250/248b
44 in D “Paris” K.279/300a
45 in G K.318
46 in B flat K.319
47 in D K.320
48 in C K.338
49 in D “Haffner” K.385
50 in C “Linz” K.425
51 in D “Prague” K.504
52 in E flat K.543
53 in G minor K.550
54 in C “Jupiter” K.551

[Pabmusic]

Hope you had a nice holiday

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Wonderful, thanks. Several more Wainwrights climbed. Nearly half-way.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Oh dear. One of those recordings that confuses the Schubert symphony numbering still further. There's already a number 7 (in E) that appears to be , er… unfinished.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Oh dear. One of those recordings that confuses the Schubert symphony numbering still further. There's already a number 7 (in E) that appears to be , er… unfinished.

I think your complaint is really with the editors of the Deutsch catalogue rather than the record company. The Symphonies that can be performed without "help" from Musicologists are now numbered 1 - 8, thus getting rid of the unwarrented "Symphony Number Seven - the Absent".

[Pabmusic]

Oh dear. One of those recordings that confuses the Schubert symphony numbering still further. There's already a number 7 (in E) that appears to be , er… unfinished.

I'm sorry, Alpie, but I disagree. There's never been a tradition of including incomplete works in any composer's canon, except in Schubert's case. (No doubt that's not quite right, but it is almost so - otherwise we'd speak of Beethoven's 10 symphonies, or Elgar's 3 - I'm being deliberately provocative here .) Schubert never numbered anything, so we are presumptuous in including the E Major symphony sketch (which you can see at the RCM) as number 7. It was Sir George Grove who did. What about all the other incomplete Schubert symphonies - we don't include them? Except of course for the B minor, which ought to be numbered 7, the C major ('Great') being 8.*

I suppose it's too late now - except that not everyone follows the British practice.

* [edit] It seems this is the numbering in the 1978 revision of the Deutsch catalogue of Schubert's works.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I suppose it's too late now - except that not everyone follows the British practice.

They manage to sort out the Dvorak numbering, so there may be a consensus one day?

[Pabmusic]

They manage to sort out the Dvorak numbering, so there may be a consensus one day?

Well, you're right, but it's easier with Schubert to ignore numbers altogether. At least, I think so.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

They manage to sort out the Dvorak numbering, so there may be a consensus one day?

Well, yes - but with Dvorak we're dealing only with completed, performable works entirely of the composer's sole work. With Schubert, the numbering of just forty years ago had to include an "imaginary" work that didn't exist until Brian Newbould (and others) put it together. (Rather well IMO, but that's another matter.) Alternatively, the Great C Major Symphony was called "Number Seven" to promulgate the myth that Schubert wrote the B minor after he'd finished the C major and died whilst writing the Scherzo! The new numbering system may take those of us of a certain age to get used to, but it's a much more logical and accurate numbering system that hithertofore.