Schubert's 7th

[Roehre]

Thanks again Pabmusic for the further elucidation.
Of course only 5 symphonies were published during Dvorak's lifetime - a mere slip of the keyboard

My remark regarding revision points to the fact that Dvorak in his symphonies did revise/amend them immediately following the first play-through/performance, by amending the orchestration and sometimes adding another (counter-)melody, none of these leading to great differences, withonly 3/5 op.24/76 being more thouroughly revised before publication, as you rightly remark.
None of these amendments are even remotely comparable with the recomposing (if you like) of the Bruckner symphonies, but more with Mozart's amendments in his 40th symphony (g-minor KV550), or Beethoven's in his eighth.

As the "Bells of Zlonice" was never performed during Dvorak's lifetime and the score got astray, the composer was unable to revise the score.

[Pabmusic]

Yes, you're absolutely right about the immediate revisions - including adding a tuba for 14 notes in the New World (to the eternal frustration of orchestral secretaries!)

[Roehre]

If you think that's bad, take a look at the numbering of Mozart's symphonies.

No. 1 does seem to be the real thing, but 2 & 3 were not by Mozart, 4 - 36, are all by Mozart, in roughly chronological order.
37 is by Michael Haydn (apart from Mozart's introduction) and 38 - 41 are masterpieces.
42 to 52 are early works, from the time of numbers 7 -19, as is "55". However, 53-54 are again doubtful.

But here the publishers are to blame, as at the time of the first publication within the (old) Mozart Gesamtausgabe these symphonies we published as identified by Köchel in his first edition of his Verzeichniss (iirc in 1856).

If you like to have a good survey of this mess, the documentation accompanying the LP-versions (I dont know the CD reissues) of the AAM/Hogwood series on l'Oiseau lyre in the 1980s gave a comprehensive list of all of the symphonies (also including the reworkings of his serenades and opera-sinfonias).

A spin-off of this project is Neal Zaslaw's book "The Mozart Symphonies", IMO a must for everybody who is interested in Mozart the composer, his symphonic works, and the backgrounds of these works: chronology, comparison with works from "surrounding symphonists", the why and what of their instrumentation (e.g. why 4 horns in KV130, 132 and 133 -and the serenade KV131 btw), their reception, discussions between Wolfgang and his father/sister, the sketches (the extensive ones for the "Prague" KV504 a prime example), etc.

Very interesting, very well documented, and nevertheless very readible accounts.
Wholeheartedly recommended.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

A spin-off of this project is Neal Zaslaw's book "The Mozart Symphonies", IMO a must for everybody who is interested in Mozart the composer, his symphonic works, and the backgrounds of these works

Thanks for that, Roehre. I'll look into it.

Update - I've just ordered it!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

A spin-off of this project is Neal Zaslaw's book "The Mozart Symphonies", IMO a must for everybody who is interested in Mozart the composer, his symphonic works, and the backgrounds of these works: chronology, comparison with works from "surrounding symphonists", the why and what of their instrumentation (e.g. why 4 horns in KV130, 132 and 133 -and the serenade KV131 btw), their reception, discussions between Wolfgang and his father/sister, the sketches (the extensive ones for the "Prague" KV504 a prime example), etc.

Very interesting, very well documented, and ... very readible accounts.
Wholeheartedly recommended.

[Alf-Prufrock]

My thanks to al the contributors to this thread - it has been enlightening if demanding!

I shall still call the Unfinished the 8th, I think. Familiarity rules, I'm afraid. But I am not sure I will ever say 'Schubert's 8th Symphony' in conversation - as Pabmusik says, the name is far more suitable than any number.

[LeMartinPecheur]

...the name is far more suitable than any number.

A-P: I hope you find yourself talking to someone who answers: "Yes A-P, but precisely which Schubert Unfinished do you mean?" Could be a great friendship!

[BBMmk2]

I have just caught up with this thread.

Very fascinating discussions from poep0le who have taken the trouble to research and make a contribution to.

So Schubert's symphonic numbering should be quite differently read than is normally shown?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

So Schubert's symphonic numbering should be quite differently read than is normally shown?

Only for the B minor (Unfinished and Great C major Symphonies, Bbm: Numbers 1 - 6 are "as shown".


(That is, of course, until somebody finds a Symphony written between Nos 3 & 4 in Scunthorpe Library, or a Manuscript of No 2 that pre-dates No 1! )

[Roehre]

Only for the B minor (Unfinished and Great C major Symphonies, Bbm: Numbers 1 - 6 are "as shown".


(That is, of course, until somebody finds a Symphony written between Nos 3 & 4 in Scunthorpe Library, or a Manuscript of No 2 that pre-dates No 1! )

Hmmmm, there IS a symphony fragment pre-dating no.1 (D.2a)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Hmmmm, there IS a symphony fragment pre-dating no.1 (D.2a)

No worries: that's "No 0"!

[BBMmk2]

No worries: that's "No 0"!

Going to look like similar to Bruckner's numbering!

[Pabmusic]

Going to look like similar to Bruckner's numbering!

Yes, it would look like the Bruckner numbering, but with one big difference: Bruckner 0 and 00 are real symphonies. All the Schubert pieces apart from 1-6, the Unfinished and 'Great' C major are incomplete sketches. That's the issue - why include sketches as if they were complete symphonies? The Unfinished is a special case. Schubert completed two movements and he presented them to a music society in circumstances that suggest either that he meant to add the remaining movements later or (perhaps) that he was content that the two movements stood well by themselves. He didn't leave the two movements incomplete, waiting for someone else to finish them - he was clearly hoping for a performance.

Nielsen started a Symphony in F in (I think) 1888, but gave up after one movement. I've never seen anyone argue that we should re-number the six real symphonies so that the F major single movement can be accommodated, even though it's more complete than any of Schubert's attempts.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The Unfinished is a special case.

Or is it? Should we perhaps consider returning the Great C major to its former home of "no. 7" as it is the 7th complete symphony? I would prefer to keep the 1-9 numbering as we do have a viable no. 7. Of course, we could go the other way and renumber them 1-10, or 1-11.

[amateur51]

Nielsen started a Symphony in F in (I think) 1888, but gave up after one movement. I've never seen anyone argue that we should re-number the six real symphonies so that the F major single movement can be accommodated, even though it's more complete than any of Schubert's attempts.

That's torn it, Pabs - I can hear that lot from Pedant Corner sharpening their nibs