Dukas: Villanelle

[Dave2002]

Calling horn players!

Does anyone know much about Villanelle by Dukas. Apparently it was written for a competition in 1906, but Dukas didn't really bother with the accompaniment. It seems reasonable to assume that the competition was a horn competition, which would explain why the accompaniment is somewhat sketchy, and Dukas never bothered to orchestrate it. If there are details about the competition it would be good to know.

Also, what do players (and others) think of the piece? I'm guessing that in places it is challenging.

The title is a bit odd too. Seemingly supposed to mean "rustic girl" or similar, but often taken just to mean some sort of country atmosphere. Does the title really contribute anything to this piece?

[amateur51]

Found an extract of a recording by Dennis Brain with Gerald Moore here ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf4w8Ib1cxY

Maybe our resident horn experts Hornspieler and Waldhorn can comment?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

In poetry, a villanelle is a series of three-line stanzas with a set pattern of repeated lines and rhyme scheme. The most famous example is Dylan's Do not go gentle into that goodnight, but there's also the young Stephen Daedalus' corny attempt at the end of A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.

Maybe the structure of the Saint-Saens tries to realize the repetition of the verse form?

[Nick Armstrong]

...Saint-Saens...

[Hornspieler]

Calling horn players!

Does anyone know much about Villanelle by Dukas. Also, what do players (and others) think of the piece? I'm guessing that in places it is challenging. .........

... The title is a bit odd too. Seemingly supposed to mean "rustic girl" or similar, but often taken just to mean some sort of country atmosphere. Does the title really contribute anything to this piece?

Challenging, yes - a great piece to play. Davis Pyatt gave a very good performance of it in winning the YMOTY competition (He went on to become Principal Horn in the LSO).

I think nearly all of us have had a go at it, at some time or another, but I have yet to hear the final bars tongued as fast as Dennis played it on that famous recording. Single tonguing 6/8 allegro quavers!

I doubt if I could even have triple-tongued it as fast as that!

HS

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Maybe the structure of the Saint-Saens tries to realize the repetition of the verse form?

... and even if it doesn't, maybe the Dukas does?

(How I miss the <doh> emoticon!)

[Nick Armstrong]

... and even if it doesn't, maybe the Dukas does?

(How I miss the <doh> emoticon!)

Copy & paste the 'Forum Code' for the third one up in the right hand column here http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys-basic-002.php

and you'll have a

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Copy & paste the 'Forum Code' for the third one up in the right hand column here http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys-basic-002.php

and you'll have a

... not sure about this one:

[Nick Armstrong]

... not sure about this one:

You'll get a from Frenchie if you try that in the Forum!

[Dave2002]

... and even if it doesn't, maybe the Dukas does?

(How I miss the <doh> emoticon!)

Maybe you WERE thinking of Saint Saens - see http://www.amazon.ca/Walzer-Arien-Go...9674942&sr=1-3 He did write a Villanelle, but it's not for horn.

[Parry1912]

Copy & paste the 'Forum Code' for the third one up in the right hand column here http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys-basic-002.php

and you'll have a

This sort of thing just makes me so ...

Sorry, I couldn't resist!

[Dave2002]

Challenging, yes - a great piece to play. Davis Pyatt gave a very good performance of it in winning the YMOTY competition (He went on to become Principal Horn in the LSO).

I think nearly all of us have had a go at it, at some time or another, but I have yet to hear the final bars tongued as fast as Dennis played it on that famous recording. Single tonguing 6/8 allegro quavers!

I doubt if I could even have triple-tongued it as fast as that!

HS

Do the horn parts usually have the last section in 6/8? The Très moderé section near the end is 6/8, but the score I looked at had the final bars - the Très animé section - in 2/2, though I can see that the triplet crotchets there could be written in 6/8, and they are pretty fast. Are the tonal changes problematic - with the mute, and then gradually forcing the tone?

Thanks for pointing out the challenges!

[Nick Armstrong]

My favourite example of a verse villanelle is this one by Auden:

Time will say nothing but I told you so,
Time only knows the price we have to pay;
If I could tell you I would let you know.

If we should weep when clowns put on their show,
If we should stumble when musicians play,
Time will say nothing but I told you so.

There are no fortunes to be told, although,
Because I love you more than I can say,
If I could tell you I would let you know.

The winds must come from somewhere when they blow,
There must be reasons why the leaves decay;
Time will say nothing but I told you so.

Perhaps the roses really want to grow,
The vision seriously intends to stay;
If I could tell you I would let you know.

Suppose all the lions get up and go,
And all the brooks and soldiers run away;
Will Time say nothing but I told you so?
If I could tell you I would let you know.

[Hornspieler]

Do the horn parts usually have the last section in 6/8? The Très moderé section near the end is 6/8, but the score I looked at had the final bars - the Très animé section - in 2/2, though I can see that the triplet crotchets there could be written in 6/8, and they are pretty fast. Are the tonal changes problematic - with the mute, and then gradually forcing the tone?

Thanks for pointing out the challenges!

Quite right about the 2/2 at the end. Each bar has 2 sets of triplet crotchets - giving the same rhythmic effect as 6/8 quavers.

There is no time in the work to insert and remove a mute. So the muted effect is achieved by hand-stopping (closing the bell of the horn with the hand)

This gives the "gestopft" effect which is similar to, but more 'ascerbic' than the "mit dämpfer" effect of a mute.

Hand-stopping raises the pitch of the instrument by a semitone, so the player must transpose down half a tone in order to achieve the correct pitch or, alternately, have an extra semitone valve fitted to the instrument which he can depress with his thumb whilst hand stopping. **

So the transition from the open sound to the muted (or echo) sound and back is achieved by the use of the right hand inside the bell of the instrument.

Difficult to explain. Maybe Waldhorn might come in on this and give a clearer explanation, but he does not appear to be around at the present time,

Hornspieler

** Yes , there are lady horn players too (Whose tiny hands get frozen?) but it seems political correctness gone mad to write he/she and his/her whenever referring to a player.

[Dave2002]

HS

That's fascinating - thank you.