Do British Orchestras 'Get' Bruckner?

[ardcarp]

It would be like foreign orchestras been forbidden to attempt British music because "they just don't get it". Thus leads the way to xenophobia, which would not be good skills...

I don't necessarily think it's xenophobic to suggest that national characteristics can best be captured by denizens of the nation itself. Of course the BPO should have a crack at Elgar, but it could be argued that a London orchestra might have the edge. Ditto Russian orchestras with Tchaik (esp the brass).

[Barbirollians]

I suggest getting Barbirolli's Halle Bruckner 7-9 on BBC legends . The Eighth, in particular ,is stupendous and by far my favourite recording of the piece.

[Alison]

Sadly I feel Bruckner simply requires much better playing than on that Barbirolli Eighth.

Tennstedt is often inspired too in the Eighth but again to my ears the playing lacks real quality.

[Petrushka]

British orchestras can't seem to produce what I think of as the brown and gold sounds ideal for Bruckner.

However much I admire the LSO stainless steel comes to mind.

Perhaps the Philharmonia would have the nod in Bruckner: who to conduct them though ?

The other side of the coin is that I don't much care for Tchaikovsky or DSCH in Berlin or Vienna.

But then these generalisations can get in the way a bit.

I treasure the LSO/Haitink Fourth.

'Brown and gold' and 'stainless steel', yes, that's very well put and is pretty much what I'm driving at. I treasure the LSO/Haitink 4th as well, it's a great performance wonderfully played, no question, except ...

[Alison]

On seeing the DSCH15 and Bruckner 4 Haitink releases my first impulse was to wish the orchestras
were reversed.

Jayne has probably made a very good point about our not-conducive-to Bruckner concert halls.

[Barbirollians]

Sadly I feel Bruckner simply requires much better playing than on that Barbirolli Eighth.

Tennstedt is often inspired too in the Eighth but again to my ears the playing lacks real quality.

I disagree with you here Alison . There are a few infelicities but they are easily forgotten by my ears in the greatness of the interpretation. I think RO's Gramophone review sums the merits of the recording up precisely . Sometimes plush perfect playing leads to breathtakingly boring Bruckner performances - like the late Karajan !

http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/October%202001/55/800783/Bruckner+CD

[Donnie Essen]

Well, I saw Haitink conduct Bruckner 7 with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. That blew ol' Donnie's socks off and way into the ether. Later, I saw Daniel Harding conduct the same piece with the LSO, which had the right notes n' all, but lacked a lot of a certain something. I was underwhelmed. Thought to blame Harding. To experiment, I got tickets to see Haitink conducting the LSO later this year, playing the same piece. That'll mix the elements of my Bruckner-seeing. Figured I'd see what'd happen.

[RobertLeDiable]

I think there is a difference of playing style between British and German-Austrian orchestras that means the latter tend to sound more idiomatic in Bruckner. I'm not a brass player, so I would defer to the experts, but I think German-trained players generally produce a mellower sound. And the particular 'klang' that you need in a Bruckner symphony, so that the brass doesn't sound too raucous or brutal in the big climaxes, seems to come more naturally to them. Of course, a conductor sensitive to the style would rehearse British players with that in mind, but perhaps without a lot of rehearsal they might not quite get there. Do the instruments themselves make a difference? Again, I would defer to the professional brass players here on that.

As to the string playing, my impression is that German string training pays greater attention, on the whole, to a singing cantabile sound, than to a bright, brilliant sort of tone production. That would sound more appropriate in Bruckner than the sound normally produced by the strings in British orchestras. It seems to me that the Philharmonia would probably come closest, among British orchestras, to a 'German' sound.

[Dave2002]

I don't necessarily think it's xenophobic to suggest that national characteristics can best be captured by denizens of the nation itself. Of course the BPO should have a crack at Elgar, but it could be argued that a London orchestra might have the edge. Ditto Russian orchestras with Tchaik (esp the brass).

I've not been a great fan of Karajan (Austrian), though I'm gradually warming to him more. However, I recently put on his CD of Holst's Planets with the Berlin PO (part of the Decca Sound box), and wow - I have no objection to orchestras and conductors playing those pieces even if they don't come from these isles if they can produce sounds like that. It always was considered one of the best versions - though I'd not heard it for a long while. Superb stuff. I also think William Steinberg (German) did a version with the Boston SO which was considered very good too - though are people who live in America considered to be almost English? Solti (Hungarian) did a couple of very good Elgar Symphony recordings, as also did Mackerras - and although he might be considered an honorary Englishman, something tells me that he originated from Australia.

It may be that some music is best done by orchestras from the country concerned - probably because they play it more often, but there is no reason why that view should hold in all cases. Someone will tell me it's genetic next. I'll respond - if at all - with some number of asterisks.

In the meantime I want to hear Bernstein in Elgar's Enigma, which I had for Christmas - though that is with the BBC SO. I know that is a controversial version, but what the heck.

[Petrushka]

I think there is a difference of playing style between British and German-Austrian orchestras that means the latter tend to sound more idiomatic in Bruckner. I'm not a brass player, so I would defer to the experts, but I think German-trained players generally produce a mellower sound. And the particular 'klang' that you need in a Bruckner symphony, so that the brass doesn't sound too raucous or brutal in the big climaxes, seems to come more naturally to them. Of course, a conductor sensitive to the style would rehearse British players with that in mind, but perhaps without a lot of rehearsal they might not quite get there. Do the instruments themselves make a difference? Again, I would defer to the professional brass players here on that.

As to the string playing, my impression is that German string training pays greater attention, on the whole, to a singing cantabile sound, than to a bright, brilliant sort of tone production. That would sound more appropriate in Bruckner than the sound normally produced by the strings in British orchestras. It seems to me that the Philharmonia would probably come closest, among British orchestras, to a 'German' sound.

Excellent post! I think this goes some way to answering my question and also to explaining not just why Gunter Wand wanted (and got) so many rehearsals with the BBCSO but also why he achieved such unforgettable results.

[Bryn]

O.k., not a "British orchestra", though there are UK nationals who play in it, and it has an English principal conductor, but have any of the Bruckner enthusiasts here yet listened to the recent Berliner Philharmoniker performance, under Simon Rattle, of the Samale et al 2010 revision of their completion of Bruckner's 9th? It's now available to watch and listen to in the Berliner Phil's Digital Concert Hall. O.k., it costs at least €9.90, but that gives you 48 hours access to the archive, plus tonight's live concert.

Anyway, what, if any, comments to Bruckner fans have to sa about this latest version of the Samale et al completion, and of the performance, too?

[Petrushka]

O.k., not a "British orchestra", though there are UK nationals who play in it, and it has an English principal conductor, but have any of the Bruckner enthusiasts here yet listened to the recent Berliner Philharmoniker performance, under Simon Rattle, of the Samale et al 2010 revision of their completion of Bruckner's 9th? It's now available to watch and listen to in the Berliner Phil's Digital Concert Hall. O.k., it costs at least €9.90, but that gives you 48 hours access to the archive, plus tonight's live concert.

Anyway, what, if any, comments to Bruckner fans have to sa about this latest version of the Samale et al completion, and of the performance, too?

Not tempted to spend €9.90 on finding out?

[Bryn]

Not tempted to spend £9.90 on finding out?

See post #3915 here. It's others' views I am seeking. From the all too frequently interrupted playback I was able to view and hear, I am won over even more than I was by Rattle's erstwhile student Daniel Harding's direction of a performance by the Swedish RSO of a the previous stage of Samale et al's work on a performing version of the finale.

I'm still avidly utilising my 48 hour access and am most likely to take out a €149.00 year's subscription at a late date. The archive is a real treasure trove.

[Petrushka]

See post #3915 here. It's others' views I am seeking. From the all too frequently interrupted playback I was able to view and hear, I am won over even more than I was by Rattle's erstwhile student Daniel Harding's direction of a performance by the Swedish RSO of a the previous stage of Samale et al's work on a performing version of the finale.

I'm still avidly utilising my 48 hour access and am most likely to take out a €149.00 year's subscription at a late date. The archive is a real treasure trove.

I can now, thanks to one or two good wins on the horses, access the BPO Digital Concert Hall via my brand new super-duper Samsung 40'' widescreen TV where it comes pre-loaded and I am hoping to catch Saturday's live Mahler 2. Subject to this working without the technical hitches that plagued the transmissions via my laptop I may well indulge in a year's subscription myself.