Vienna Phil 2012 New Year's concert

[John Skelton]

Many thanks Pabmusic. It's such an attractive concert I shall invest in the CD!

[Ferretfancy]

I think this whole Tchaikovsky/Strauss comparison, which was discussed earlier in the thread as well, is pretty pointless; you're not comparing like for like. Tchaikovsky's waltzes are written in a completely different style, as part of a a romantic ballet or other symphonic composition. They are waltzes just as is Ravel's "La Valse"; it's like comparing a Haydn Symphony with one by Mahler- they both share the name, but that's where the comparison ends.

Johann and Josef Strauss wrote music that is perfectly structured and beautifully orchestrated, with some memorable melodies. But it is what it is- light music, written for entertainment; it's not aspiring to great depth or profundity. Not all classical music has to. That does not make it any less worthy of our attention.

Spot on Mr Pee!

The magical introductions to Strauss waltzes have rarely been surpassed. As to profundity, we seem to be living in a time when all new music has to be significant and ground breaking, otherwise it is disregarded. Of course music has to move forward,but until recently composers were not above seeking to give pleasure as well as intellectual stimulation, but that seems to be frowned on nowadays.

[John Skelton]

we seem to be living in a time when all new music has to be significant and ground breaking, otherwise it is disregarded. Of course music has to move forward,but until recently composers were not above seeking to give pleasure as well as intellectual stimulation, but that seems to be frowned on nowadays.

A lot of new music seems content to repackage older music with a surface difference: that's often the stuff that gets things like Proms commissions.

I think what gives the best (that I've heard) of the Strausses music its fascination is a powerful ambivalence towards "pleasure": if that wasn't the case it would be as vacuous and disposable as its detractors claim. All IMHO of course. .

[Flosshilde]

So you consider a concert of Classical Music that is not to your taste to be frivolous and trivial?

If the music is frivolous & trivial, yes. & the Strauss waltzes were essentially written to be danced to, & were essentially ephemeral. I doubt that the composers thought that they would be much more than of passing interest. I wouldn't consider a concert of Brahms symphonies, or Bruckner (to give a couple of examples of composers whose music I don't like) trivial. I am simply bemused & puzzled that the fine details of this particular event are discussed with such intense seriousness, when other concerts are ignored or fail to generate much discussion.

[Flosshilde]

Thought Trelawney was appalling leaving aside his bad German pronunciation. Horribly sickly and schmaltzy like pouring condensed milk over a sachertorte !

Suited to the occasion, then?

[John Skelton]

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=AF-L921gjuAC&pg=PA67&lpg=PA67&dq=schoenberg+writing+on+johann+strauss&source=bl&ots=FJnapIUo3o&sig=fA4Le8mhcwLbypG6JNy0Phc0nfI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_bEBT43oHcGM-waL9IGeAQ&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=schoenberg%20writing%20on%20johann%20strauss&f=false

[Nick Armstrong]

Thielemann... very strange

Yes: generally!

Thought Trelawney was appalling leaving aside his bad German pronunciation. Horribly sickly and schmaltzy like pouring condensed milk over a sachertorte !

I was going to say that (judging by the 5 or 10 minutes I was able to stand) he sounded very like Brian Kay, who I also found unctuous (albeit with a greater appearance of sincerity and geniality)

[Petrushka]

Thought Trelawney was appalling leaving aside his bad German pronunciation. Horribly sickly and schmaltzy like pouring condensed milk over a sachertorte !

I found nothing to object to in Petroc's presentation. His German pronunciation certainly wasn't faultless but that apart I've got no complaints. Presumably tucked away in the basement of the Musikverein, he managed, nevertheless, to impart a good sense of atmosphere. I've often wondered in the past whether the announcer, be it Richard Baker, Brian Kay or Petroc, is not in Vienna at all but is actually sitting in a BBC studio in London watching the concert on the TV relay and I still have my doubts.

[Mr Pee]

If the music is frivolous & trivial, yes. & the Strauss waltzes were essentially written to be danced to, & were essentially ephemeral. I doubt that the composers thought that they would be much more than of passing interest. I wouldn't consider a concert of Brahms symphonies, or Bruckner (to give a couple of examples of composers whose music I don't like) trivial. I am simply bemused & puzzled that the fine details of this particular event are discussed with such intense seriousness, when other concerts are ignored or fail to generate much discussion.

Perhaps it is because this is a concert with such history and tradition, and one that is a New Year's Day ritual for millions of people around the world. I certainly don't consider such finely-crafted music as we heard yesterday to be trivial, and I have no idea whether the composers expected their work to be of more than passing interest- but it was hugely popular during their lifetimes, so I would imagine they had an idea that it might well be.

I therefore see no reason why this concert should not be discussed with "intense seriousness" ( although I haven't found this thread particularly intense or serious.) And anyway much of it has been taken up with certain posters favourite New Year Concert hobby-horse:- the number of female musicians in the VPO.

[John Skelton]

And anyway much of it has been taken up with certain posters favourite New Year Concert hobby-horse:- the number of female musicians in the VPO.

And with the entirely predictable responses.

Returning to Flosshilde's post: I don't see why what composers thought the after-life of their music would or wouldn't be is in the least important. Machaut could not have imagined that his Messe de Nostre Dame would be sung, listened to, discussed, theorised over in a secular or any other context 750 years later; but that doesn't make the music any less remarkable (to choose an example very distant from the Strausses). I doubt composers of baroque operas thought much about the music they had written 'beyond' performance or revival. They may have thought of it as ephemeral, but it hasn't proved so.

[Alison]

It is easy to see how much the music means to some of the finest orchestral players on the planet.

Many of us do care rather a lot about the repertoire chosen and the quality of the performances.

Perhaps its Flosshilde who is in danger of taking his/her theories a shade too seriously.

[Petrushka]

It is easy to see how much the music means to some of the finest orchestral players on the planet.

Many of us do care rather a lot about the repertoire chosen and the quality of the performances.

Perhaps its Flosshilde who is in danger of taking his/her theories a shade too seriously.

Indeed so. Schoenberg, Wagner and Brahms among composers and conductors such as Karajan, Kempe, Kleiber pere et fils, Knappertsbusch and Krips (and those are the ones just beginning with K) have all taken Johann Strauss very seriously.

Only guessing but I wonder if Flossie has been prejudiced by endless run-of-the-mill renditions of the Blue Danube and Tales from the Vienna Woods? If so, a listening to Josef's Delerien as played yesterday would have the Flossie jaw dropping in wonder. The introduction alone renders this waltz a mini-masterpiece and a long, long way from the sugary and the kitsch as can be imagined.

Here it is conducted by Herbert von Karajan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHZniYSzMCc

[Ferretfancy]

Petrushka

Schoenberg, Berg and Webern all collaborated in producing delightful chamber versions of Strauss Waltzes for a concert intended to raise funds for new music. All the arrangements are a delight, and obviously spring from great love for the originals.

I'm sure that you are right in pointing to the disappointment of run-of-the-mill performances, especially with British orchestras. Barbirolli did pretty well, but generally home grown performances lack the magic. One of my pet hates used to be the Viennese evenings at the Proms, when the idiots in the front row ( Not me! I stand further back ! ) would bob up and down to the music with silly grins asking us to share the joke, as if it was all a trivial farce.

[Mr Pee]

Indeed so. Schoenberg, Wagner and Brahms among composers and conductors such as Karajan, Kempe, Kleiber pere et fils, Knappertsbusch and Krips (and those are the ones just beginning with K) have all taken Johann Strauss very seriously.

Only guessing but I wonder if Flossie has been prejudiced by endless run-of-the-mill renditions of the Blue Danube and Tales from the Vienna Woods? If so, a listening to Josef's Delerien as played yesterday would have the Flossie jaw dropping in wonder. The introduction alone renders this waltz a mini-masterpiece and a long, long way from the sugary and the kitsch as can be imagined.

Here it is conducted by Herbert von Karajan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHZniYSzMCc

Thank you for that link, Petrushka. Wonderful. How anybody could dismiss such music as trite or inconsequential is quite beyond my comprehension.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

How anybody could dismiss such music as trite or inconsequential is quite beyond my comprehension.

Musical snobbery is hardly new. As a student, I was villified for confessing I liked Tchaikovsky's music.