Vienna Phil 2012 New Year's concert

[Ferretfancy]

I didn't want to suggest that Mr Kay was a decaying colossal wreck !

[Sapere Aude]

At the end of the day I still love to watch these concerts every year - not because of the "expensive suits" in the audience, or the horses or I don't know what! But because of the charm and style with which the orchestra plays this music!

A lot of other great orchestras around the world play Strauss or Lehar every New Year - but it is obvious to me, and other musicians, that no orchestra takes this music as seriously as the VPO! No matter who the conductor is (in fact, I'm sure the New Year Concert conductors, despite what some may imagine, do little more than let the orchestra play!), the way in which the VPO do the transitions between the "waltzes within a waltz", the rubatos, is just .... so natural! The phrasing just flows, never a rit feels forced or an accelerando artificial!

That is not instilled "in 3 days" by Jansons or Kleiber, or Karajan, or Pretre, etc. It has clearly been "passed" from generation to generation within the orchestra, from long before some of these conductors learned how to walk!

[amateur51]

That is not instilled "in 3 days" by Jansons or Kleiber, or Karajan, or Pretre, etc. It has clearly been "passed" from generation to generation within the orchestra, from long before some of these conductors learned how to walk!

But surely this could be achieved and passed on to and within an orcherstra that included a good proportion of women. What you have described is indeed 'magical' but surely not an exclusively male skill set.

[Mr Pee]

But surely this could be achieved and passed on to and within an orcherstra that included a good proportion of women. What you have described is indeed 'magical' but surely not an exclusively male skill set.

I don't think sapere was suggesting otherwise.

[amateur51]

I don't think sapere was suggesting otherwise.

I think sapere was stressing continuity of tradition, and part of that tradition is the almost total and deliberate exclusion of women, Mr Pee. I'm not suggesting that sapere was thereby agreeing with that exclusion but I was indicating that there is a price to be paid.

[Sapere Aude]

But surely this could be achieved and passed on to and within an orcherstra that included a good proportion of women. What you have described is indeed 'magical' but surely not an exclusively male skill set.

That's not what I said! I'm sure the "playing philosophy" of the VPO could just as easily be passed on to competent men or women musicians, to competent Austro-Germans or foreigners, despite any claims otherwise. But if the VPO choose to go "mostly men", if some of those VPO musicians feel no guilt after sharing a desk with some, I'm sure good women players or "foreigners" at the opera, but not willing to do so at the philharmonic, if those excluded comply with that, etc. it's their problem, not mine!

If a quartet, openly advertised as "all-female" (of which there are so many today), turned out to be musically fantastic, I couldn't care less that they "exclude" men!

[amateur51]

That's not what I said! I'm sure the "playing philosophy" of the VPO could just as easily be passed on to competent men or women musicians, to competent Austro-Germans or foreigners, despite any claims otherwise. But if the VPO choose to go "mostly men", if some of those VPO musicians feel no guilt after sharing a desk with some, I'm sure good women players or "foreigners" at the opera, but not willing to do so at the philharmonic, if those excluded comply with that, etc. it's their problem, not mine!

If a quartet, openly advertised as "all-female" (of which there are so many today), turned out to be musically fantastic, I couldn't care less that they "exclude" men!

Sorry sapere I don't understand your main point.

An interesting article from The Independent in 2010:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/all-white-on-the-night-why-does-the-worldfamous-vienna-philharmonic-feature-so-few-women-and-ethnic-minorities-1915666.html

The VPO gets about 2.8 euros from the Austrian government which has anti-discrimination policies; and members of the VPO are exempt from National Service - interesting huh? ;whistle:

[Sapere Aude]

My point is that if the policy of the VPO was still widely applied across most orchestras, as it used to be, it would matter. But today, in most orchestras including most of the great orchestras, women are welcome, respected and appreciated. Many orchestras today even have a majority of female members. In some places it went to the other extreme - I have seen advertised "all female orchestras", a huge number of "all female" chamber music groups, etc. I think this is no longer "a battle to be fought". If VPO wants to continue to be a "boy band", I don't think it is relevant anymore that's why I personally don't care anymore about it.

[amateur51]

My point is that if the policy of the VPO was still widely applied across most orchestras, as it used to be, it would matter. But today, in most orchestras including most of the great orchestras, women are welcome, respected and appreciated. Many orchestras today even have a majority of female members. In some places it went to the other extreme - I have seen advertised "all female orchestras", a huge number of "all female" chamber music groups, etc. I think this is no longer "a battle to be fought". If VPO wants to continue to be a "boy band", I don't think it is relevant anymore that's why I personally don't care anymore about it.

Why should any organisation that apparently flouts the Government's anti-discrimination laws receive millions of euros in public funding? It almost appears to be a reward

Just because a 'battle' has been partially won does not seem to me to be a good reason to withdraw from the fray

Btw Sapere - are you a woman?

[Sapere Aude]

First of all it is not my government. The Austrian electorate seems in its majority satisfied with their policies, that's why I say it is not my problem. I'm not an Austrian and I don't plan to audition there. As a musician I prefer to vote with my feet if I don't like it somewhere and have already lived and worked in a number of countries. But also, as a musician, I cannot ignore and would be a fool not to appreciate the qualities of the VPO when I notice them.

Also I know of orchestras advertised as "all female" and from which men where excluded (and they complained to "the authorities", which was quite funny!), in Europe, orchestras which received money from their governments for concerts and festivals. No better then the VPO, the other side of the coin. In fact these days it is acceptable to advertise in classical music an ensemble as "all female" but everyone would frown if a group was advertised as "all men"!

[amateur51]

First of all it is not my government. The Austrian electorate seems in its majority satisfied with their policies, that's why I say it is not my problem. I'm not an Austrian and I don't plan to audition there. As a musician I prefer to vote with my feet if I don't like it somewhere and have already lived and worked in a number of countries. But also, as a musician, I cannot ignore and would be a fool not to appreciate the qualities of the VPO when I notice them.

Also I know of orchestras advertised as "all female" and from which men where excluded (and they complained to "the authorities", which was quite funny!), in Europe, orchestras which received money from their governments for concerts and festivals. No better then the VPO, the other side of the coin. In fact these days it is acceptable to advertise in classical music an ensemble as "all female" but everyone would frown if a group was advertised as "all men"!

Ah the good old "I See No Ships" argument

Or do I mean "Head in The Sand"?

I seem to remember a time when how the Austrian government treated its Jewish citizens raised a great deal of concern.

BTW Sapere, are you a woman?

[Sapere Aude]

You are absolutely distorting what I say, amateur. And also you seem to be mostly interested in the non-musical argument, while I am more interested in the musical argument. Also, where are the complaining female Austrian musicians? I met Austrian musicians as recently as last summer when we where there on tour. And I have musician friends living and working there. But I have to say, when we found ourselves discussing about this issue it was usually because us, "the non-Austrians" brought it up, and they, including the females seemed to be puzzled by our interest in the subject! At least in my experience.

[amateur51]

You are absolutely distorting what I say, amateur. And also you seem to be mostly interested in the non-musical argument, while I am more interested in the musical argument. Also, where are the complaining female Austrian musicians? I met Austrian musicians as recently as last summer when we where there on tour. And I have musician friends living and working there. But I have to say, when we found ourselves discussing about this issue it was usually because us, "the non-Austrians" brought it up, and they, including the females seemed to be puzzled by our interest in the subject! At least in my experience.

I'm sorry that you think I'm distorting your argument Sapere but I think it's best if we leave it there.

Except for me to ask, politely, once again, are you a woman?

[Sapere Aude]

As far as I am concerned, great music transcends everything. Personally , when it is about music, I only care about the music - and nothing else. Whether I hear the VPO or Berlin PO, or New York Phil or Suisse Romande or the old Leningrad or some Wagner or Brahms I don't care if they were "good" or "bad" people or bigots or who knows what! Should I stop playing Mozart's music because I suspect he was fascinated by scatology? Should we not play Wagner because of "Das Judenthum in der Musik"? Should we not play Brahms because he was often horrible and rude? Should we not play Beethoven because he practically destroyed his nephew's life? Should we dismiss R. Strauss because his work was "driven" by money? Should we stop playing Sibelius because he might have been a little too friendly to some Nazis? Should we stop playing Shostakovich because he might have publicly agreed with some soviet denunciations? Where do we stop?

[amateur51]

As far as I am concerned, great music transcends everything. Personally , when it is about music, I only care about the music - and nothing else. Whether I hear the VPO or Berlin PO, or New York Phil or Suisse Romande or the old Leningrad or some Wagner or Brahms I don't care if they were "good" or "bad" people or bigots or who knows what! Should I stop playing Mozart's music because I suspect he was fascinated by scatology? Should we not play Wagner because of "Das Judenthum in der Musik"? Should we not play Brahms because he was often horrible and rude? Should we not play Beethoven because he practically destroyed his nephew's life? Should we dismiss R. Strauss because his work was "driven" by money? Should we stop playing Sibelius because he might have been a little too friendly to some Nazis? Should we stop playing Shostakovich because he might have publicly agreed with some soviet denunciations? Where do we stop?

Now who is distorting whose argument?

Try this Sapere - instead of women, VPO decides not to admit Christians. At all. It would affect the sound built up over generations. How would that strike you?