Sibelius Kullervo on BBC Four tonight.

[Chris Newman]

Even if Barbirolli and Beecham were better than Sir Colin Davis it doesn't preclude him from being a great Sibelius conductor as well. I have always enjoyed his Boston performances (especially No 2) more than his later LSO (for RCA) and LSO Live discs but he rarely disappoints me. My only encounter with Gibson in Sibelius is on a disappointing recording of No 5 and I wouldn't want to judge him solely on that.

I like many here am a fan of Sir Alex Gibson's Sibelius but the 1960 RCA version of the Fifth symphony made with the LSO never really takes fire and is not as good as his later versions for CfP and Chandos.

[Bryn]

I had the good fortune to come across the three Chandos discs of the symphonies (in their bargain basement re-issue form) in a box at "Steve's Sounds" in Soho. The were priced at £1.00 each, IIRC. I did not have a set of the symphonies on CD at the time, so took a chance. Still one of my favourite sets, though there's plenty of room for Davis, Bernstein, Vanska et al.

[RobertLeDiable]

I agree that Sargent made some good Sibelius recordings. Colin Davis may have been better when he was younger, but I find his more recent Sibelius (especially the LSO recordings) just complacent. What the Finns (from Berglund on through Salonen, Vanska and Oramo) have shown us is that the old romantic view of Sibelius doesn't tell us the whole story. There has to be real attention to detail, and an edge of danger to bring out the music's real character. Somebody criticised Vanska's Kullervo as being 'metronomic' - but it isn't. It's rhythmically vital in a way that Davis's flacid performance wasn't. All that early Sibelius up to the 1st Symphony is violent, viscious, manic almost to the point of madness, and if you don't bring that out you miss the essential character. If you smooth it over and just go for a kind of general liveliness it's no good.

[amateur51]

My dad tells the tale of going to hear Sargent conduct Sibelius 2 in Nottingham in his student days, and being so overwhelmed by the fabulous performance that he took the wrong bus home and was out half the night!

All that AND ham sarnies - I like the cut of Papa Caliban's jib

[jayne lee wilson]

Never really got on with Kullervo, always get bogged own in the long vocal 3rd movement - doubtless my loss. Despite many inspired examples, I often feel ambiguous about vocal or choral sections within symphonies...

If the Berglund Bournemouth SO cycle was remastered/reissued, it would be surely one of the finest - no.4 in the Royal Classics set sounds very compelling as it is! I have 3 and 5 from the Helsinki PO cycle on a lovely-sounding Toshiba, but there simply isn't the same tension; the conclusions of both are a little anti-climactic.

Has anyone mentioned Bernstein in this thread? His New York cycle is a mixed bag, but the 1st is a stunner, an out-and-out classic, and would impress anyone. True to letter and spirit.

[Bryn]

Has anyone mentioned Bernstein in this thread? His New York cycle is a mixed bag, but the 1st is a stunner, an out-and-out classic, and would impress anyone. True to letter and spirit.

Briefly in #62. Indeed a mixed bag, but never boring.

[Barbirollians]

I have rather a soft spot for Sir Colin's Sibelius myself but prefer the RCA LSO recordings ( although I only have 1-6) to the LSO Live and the Boston SO . The Boston SO Sibelius 2 I have never been able to get on with .

Kullervo is the work of his I like the least I am afraid . I think he was wise to put it in a draw .

My favourite Sibelius conductors are Asknenazy ( his Seventh in particular ) , Beecham - that HMV disc of Pelleas and Melisande, Tapiola and The Oceanides is deservedly a classic and most of all Barbirolli . The EMI recordings really made me love Sibelius and that Reader's Digest Sibelius 2 is just stunning .

[jayne lee wilson]

Yes, that Barbirolli is VERY special! If I can be immodest for a moment (oh, just for a change...) I can boast ownership of the Chesky gold CD of that one. OooH yes, don't worry, it does sound better than the standard issue. Wow.

[RobertLeDiable]

I think Kullervo is one of those pieces that only really works well in the right kind of performance. As I said, early Sibelius (including the Lemminkainen Legends and even the 1st Symphony) must have a kind of wild-eyed, manic energy. There's a kind of glib assumption you often hear people making that a lot of it is sub-Tchaikovsky, and while some of his methods might be Tchaikovskyian, the sound is both distinctively and uniquely Sibelian from Kullervo onwards, with the odd nod to Wagner or Bruckner as much as Tchaikovsky. In Kullervo he uses repeat note patterns and rhythms that could almost be early-minimalist (or at least Bruckner-influenced) in a way that is very radical for its time. The 3rd movement, when the choir and soloists enter, marvellously evokes a distant, primitive past of mythical characters and episodes of pitiless violence. The chanting of the choir is hypnotic, with its ritualistic repetition of certain phrases, but all of this music must have razor-sharp rhythmic definition and extremes of dynamic, as you get in Vanska's or Berglund's interpretations. Without that, it can be quite dull - which is what I found in Davis's performance.

[Chris Newman]

I do agree about the powerful influence of Bruckner in Kullervo, En Saga, the last movement of the Fourth Symphony. Sibelius was a great admirer of Bruckner especially after he heard Richter conduct the older composer's Third Symphony. It is not only the strong use of repeated cells (a feature of Janacek also) but those vast arching phrases that often rise and fall over the ostinatos or appear on their own. To my ears the effects in Bruckner often has an architectural yet spiritual sense of authority whereas the same effects are redolent of the awesome powers of nature in Sibelius. In Janacek the effects have raw human emotional tones though I cannot find any acknowledgement that he was aware of Bruckner or Sibelius.

[amateur51]

Without that, it can be quite dull - which is what I found in Davis's performance.

Good of you to remind us RobertTheDiabolical

[RobertLeDiable]

In Janacek the effects have raw human emotional tones though I cannot find any acknowledgement that he was aware of Bruckner or Sibelius.

Good point about Janacek. I suspect you're right, and that he wouldn't have been aware of Sibelius at least. Bruckner? Well Vienna isn't so far from Brno, but....