Bruckner 9 the Finale that Nearly Was

[antongould]

Forgive and ignore me if this has been "done to death" before but I was fascinated when I heard the Carragan's completion (2010 version) of Bruckner's 9th symphony on Essential Classics last week. I purchased it on CD or rather attempted to and being a wally find I have the Samale/Phillips/Cohrs/Mazzuca version on Naxos with the New Philharmonic Orchestra of Westphalia / Johannes Wildner.
On 3 or 4 plays I feel it "works" and IMHO enhances the experience. The sleeve notes are fascinating in detailing the work that went into its preparation and I was not aware that so much of Bruckner's workings of the finale had survived. Sad to think that Bruckner's doctor had the final "song of praise" (of which nothing seemed to survive) played to him by AB and couldn't recall it!
Is it the general view that the symphony should be left alone with 3 movements that are totally the great man or is the Te Deum "valid", as a finale as Bruckner seems to have indicated it should be "used", were he not to finish the job?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I've never had any problems with completions, provided that they sound consistent with the original.
Schubert's "Unfinished" already had most of the 3rd movement in sketch form, though the B minor Entr'acte from Rosamunde is not entirely convincing as a finale.
Elgar-Payne 3 is rather excellent. Turandot isn't bad either. Mozart Requiem, etc...

[Bryn]

antongold, there is a later version by the Samale/Phillips/Cohrs/Mazzuca team which was performed by Swedish forces under Harding's baton. You might be able to find an mp3 of its broadcast via the Internet (it has been broadcast on BBC Radio 3, by the way). Apparently Rattle intends to record Bruckner's 9th with a completion of the 4th movement. Can't let his star pupil have all the glory.

I thought the Carragan worked somewhat better, but am glad to be able to hear both, plus a couple of earlier efforts by Samale and co. I don't think Samale's version of Mahler's 10th is on a par with Cooke's, by the way.

[antongould]

Bryn
Thanks so much for that.

Do we know who SR intends to perform it with? His own band? Is he to do the same completion as his pupil?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I have no problem per se with the idea of arranging the sketches of the Finale into some performable entity. The "trouble" for me is that I know the 3 movement version so well through such shattering interpretations by Karajan, Furtwangler and others that this has become the work, for me. These conductors gear their performances towards the climax of the Third Movement and the Coda as the conclusion of their performances: I'm convinced they would have played the Movement differently had they had another 80 page movement (completed by Bruckner himself) still to go.

At the moment, I would imagine that for most listeners, any conductor who attempts a "completed" Symphony is on a hiding to nothing. Having heard so many great performances of the work with the third movement played as "cataclysm and redemption", it sounds as if it's being "sold short" if this sort of interpretation is deliberately avoided in order to accomodate the (re)-constructed Finale.

Perhaps it will need a new generation of Bruckner lovers, brought up on excellent performances of a completed version to evaluate fairly and accurately the courage and intelligence of Carragan's work (in the same way that Rattle convinced my generation of the "rightness" of "Cooke's Mahler 10"). For me, it remains a far greater work as a three-movement torso.

Best Wishes.

[Bryn]

Bryn
Do we know who SR intends to perform it with? His own band? Is he to do the same completion as his pupil?

As far as I know he intends to do it with the Berliners. As to which completion, I think the jury of one is still out, but last I heard he was tending towards the most recent of the Samale/Phillips/Cohrs/Mazzuca versions, the one Harding did.

Here's a review of the Harding performance. It looks like the only mp3s of the broadcast to be found these days are via torrents.

[BBMmk2]

Ifd there is so much left of the sketches of the fourth movment, then surely picking up the pieces and putting them together should not be to much of a challenge? I would love to hear the finale of the 9th!

[Pabmusic]

I know Benjamin-Gunnar Cohrs (of the Samale/Phillips/Cohrs/Mazzuca reconstruction) quite well. He is a fine conductor who likes British music - I have concert recordings of Elgar, RVW (5th Symphony) and Britten. A score of the Bruckner reconstruction is available from Musikproduktion Juergen Hoeflich http://www.musikmph.de.

[Pabmusic]

Schubert's "Unfinished" already had most of the 3rd movement in sketch form, though the B minor Entr'acte from Rosamunde is not entirely convincing as a finale.

I conducted the "Finished" Symphony in 2007. We used the B minor entr'acte from Rosamunde, which goes well, especially if (1) you play the ending in B minor instead of major, which no recording does (this is quite understandable, of course, as there's no authority for it; but it does work well); (2) you play the F-sharp timp an octave higher (as it is in the Unfinished); and (3) you put in an exposition repeat (it's fairly obvious where one goes). These changes may seem drastic, but I think it works much better than just playing the entr'acte as it stands. There is at least a good circumstantial argument for using it.

[bluestateprommer]

SSR and the Berliners will be taking the Samale-Phillips-Cohrs-Mazzuca completion of Bruckner 9 to Carnegie Hall this coming February:

http://www.carnegiehall.org/Event.aspx?id=3086

[crb11]

I have no problem per se with the idea of arranging the sketches of the Finale into some performable entity. The "trouble" for me is that I know the 3 movement version so well through such shattering interpretations by Karajan, Furtwangler and others that this has become the work, for me. These conductors gear their performances towards the climax of the Third Movement and the Coda as the conclusion of their performances: I'm convinced they would have played the Movement differently had they had another 80 page movement (completed by Bruckner himself) still to go.

Perhaps it will need a new generation of Bruckner lovers, brought up on excellent performances of a completed version to evaluate fairly and accurately the courage and intelligence of Carragan's work (in the same way that Rattle convinced my generation of the "rightness" of "Cooke's Mahler 10"). For me, it remains a far greater work as a three-movement torso.

I think you're right we have yet to have a "definitive" performance of the completion, and that the work needs to be handled very differently if you're adding the fourth movement. I don't see the 3-movement version going away even if the completion becomes reasonably accepted - I feel it's as though there are two different versions of the work and sometimes I want one and sometimes the other - more usually the 3-movement one at present.

I struggle with the Harding recording a bit - to me he seems to have fallen a bit between two stools, with the work not feeling complete after the Adagio, but he doesn't convince me that the fourth movement belongs, but he deserves another couple of listens. I also have Inbal (Frankfurt RSO) and Talmi (Oslo Philharmonic) which to me present it as a more complete whole but neither of those is up to several of the "classic" traditional 9ths.

[Lion-of-Vienna]

I always feel that it was lucky that Bruckner did not follow his normal practice of placing the scherzo as the third movement in No.9. The three-movement Ninth Symphony would sound much more incomplete with the scherzo as its last word.

Having listened to the four-movement version of the symphony I now find it hard to go back to the three-movement versions that I have without that feeling of incompleteness that I never had before.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I always feel that it was lucky that Bruckner did not follow his normal practice of placing the scherzo as the third movement in No.9. The three-movement Ninth Symphony would sound much more incomplete with the scherzo as its last word.

How true: I'd never thought of this before (but not quite "normal practice": the 8th also reverses the "2nd/3rd" movt order.)

Having listened to the four-movement version of the symphony I now find it hard to go back to the three-movement versions that I have without that feeling of incompleteness that I never had before.

Now this may be why I'm reluctant to try the various completions: I don't want to lose the sense of "ending" that I get from the Three-movement torso!

Best Wishes.

[jayne lee wilson]

I got the Wildner/Naxos and played the finale a few times before attempting a complete listen... I'm afraid I wasn't convinced by that version, not nearly, whether alone or with the other movements... trust the recent revisions will be more convincing. But I'm with fhg about the "familiarity problem". I'll try Rattle but I don't see a way around it; the Klemperer was one of the first LPs I bought, and doubtless over-played...

(Even with Mahler 6 I can't get used to the Scherzo coming 3rd!)

[Petrushka]

I got the Wildner/Naxos and played the finale a few times before attempting a complete listen... I'm afraid I wasn't convinced by that version, not nearly, whether alone or with the other movements... trust the recent revisions will be more convincing. But I'm with fhg about the "familiarity problem". I'll try Rattle but I don't see a way around it; the Klemperer was one of the first LPs I bought, and doubtless over-played...

(Even with Mahler 6 I can't get used to the Scherzo coming 3rd!)

I don't have a problem at all with the order of the Mahler 6 middle movements and am happy to listen to it in whichever way the conductor sees fit. Either way is valid. A Bruckner 9 'completion', though, is a different breed of dog altogether. I, too, cannot see round the 'familiarity problem' or that that grinding, dissonant climax of the third movement would not after all be the destination of the whole work. I assume that Rattle will be recording this version but, for me, this is just another addition to the already complicated saga of Bruckner versions.