Manchester and Sibelius

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  • Auferstehen2
    • Feb 2025

    Manchester and Sibelius

    So, looking for some relief to recover from THAT Manchester derby mauling, I booked for a concert to hear the Hallé orchestra live, performing Sibelius 4 and Beethoven 2 in the Bridgewater Hall (never been there before).

    I guess familiarity really does breed contempt, for the envy and jealousy I have for all of you who are able to hear such phenomenal music-making continuously may progressively anesthetize the listener. The Malta Phil can give a good account of itself, but it is simply light years away from the sheen and bloom of those strings and those rasping horns and trumpets. Where does the Hallé rank these days? What is it that makes me cringe somewhat when I see a female timpanist? I seem to recall that the Insurance Orchestra also had a timpanistess too.

    As for that Sibelius work, well, what a dark and sombre work! I almost wished I was back at Old Trafford - almost! It would be unfair to comment on a work after the very first hearing, but following with a score, I don't think there's a single happy bar in it, is there?

    The Beethoven was a pretty mundane affair.

    Mario
  • Chris Newman
    Late Member
    • Nov 2010
    • 2100

    #2
    Hi, Mario,

    The Sibelius Fourth Symphony is very dark. A friend finds it so cold that he keeps his coat on. Two years before he finished it he had a cancerous growth removed from his throat and mentally was in a "dark place" for several years.

    Beethoven really got into his symphonic stride with the Third but the first Two are still powerful stuff. I find it has a Hadynesque humour. I have read that the opening of the fourth movement in the Second is supposed to represent the breaking of wind, but if we believe that sort of criticism we believe anything.

    I have been much impressed by the Halle recently. British orchestras are very healthy sounding at the moment (though far from safe!) and the Halle is among the best. The BBC ScottishSO has a female timpanist too.

    bws
    Chris.

    Comment

    • Auferstehen2

      #3
      Originally posted by Chris Newman View Post
      I have read that the opening of the fourth movement in the Second is supposed to represent the breaking of wind, but if we believe that sort of criticism we believe anything.
      Unbelievable Chris, simply unbelievable! It's always sounded like a little chuckle or a guffaw to me, albeit perhaps at a saucy remark, as was Beethoven's wont. What idiot came up with this one I wonder?

      Mario

      (PS, United making heavy work of their football currently)

      Comment

      • Ventilhorn

        #4
        Originally posted by Chris Newman View Post
        Hi, Mario,

        I have been much impressed by the Halle recently. British orchestras are very healthy sounding at the moment (though far from safe!) and the Halle is among the best. The BBC ScottishSO has a female timpanist too.

        bws
        Chris.
        In the Halcyon days of Barbirolli's reign, his tympanist was Joyce Aldous and his principal trombone was Maisie Ringham
        During the nineteen forties, his principal horn was Livia Gollancz - daughter of Victor Gollancz, the famous book publisher. She later moved to Sadlers Wells, but gave up playing to take over the Gollancz Publishing House when her father died.

        Ventilhorn

        Comment

        • Nick Armstrong
          Host
          • Nov 2010
          • 26610

          #5
          Originally posted by Ventilhorn View Post
          In the Halcyon days of Barbirolli's reign, his tympanist was Joyce Aldous and his principal trombone was Maisie Ringham
          During the nineteen forties, his principal horn was Livia Gollancz - daughter of Victor Gollancz, the famous book publisher. She later moved to Sadlers Wells, but gave up playing to take over the Gollancz Publishing House when her father died.

          Ventilhorn
          I love orchestral tales like that, little nuggets of info. As a trombonist, I'd love to see a pic of Maisie! I bet she was no stranger to the ribald anecdote over a pint or three of Bodingtons...

          Ms Gollancz sounds rather more exotic...



          EDIT: Aye aye, here's Maisie! http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YrZy1Pblyo...00/ringham.jpg

          Bless: http://www.northlondonmusicteachers....thwood-ha6-2dj


          Last edited by Nick Armstrong; 02-11-11, 21:45. Reason: Been stalkin' Maisie !!
          "...the isle is full of noises,
          Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
          Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
          Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

          Comment

          • JoeG

            #6
            Hi Mario - nice to hear from you again - Sibelius 4 is indeed his bleakest work but, call me an old misery guts, I love it. The Halle went through a bleak patch itself a few years ago but I believe Elder transformed it into one of the finest orchestras in the UK. Sad to say I haven't seen them recently - the only concerts I fancy in Bradford are on when I am away or at another gig! The BBC Phil are also a fine band and between them offer lucky Mancunians something worthwhile supporting ;-)

            Comment

            • Auferstehen2

              #7
              Hello Joe,

              Likewise!

              Sadly, since I left the UK many years ago, I've lost touch completely with the various BBC orchestras. So the BBC Phil is a northern orchestra and plays in Manchester? I'm going to look them up!

              Many thanks for the pointer Joe,

              Best wishes,

              Mario

              Comment

              • MrGongGong
                Full Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 18357

                #8
                Originally posted by Auferstehen2 View Post
                What is it that makes me cringe somewhat when I see a female timpanist?
                I hear that in the provinces women have been allowed to vote , though I can't see it spreading to the rest of the nation ? Makes you cringe , doesn't it

                Comment

                • Ventilhorn

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Caliban View Post
                  I love orchestral tales like that, little nuggets of info. As a trombonist, I'd love to see a pic of Maisie! I bet she was no stranger to the ribald anecdote over a pint or three of Bodingtons...

                  Ms Gollancz sounds rather more exotic...



                  EDIT: Aye aye, here's Maisie! http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YrZy1Pblyo...00/ringham.jpg

                  Bless: http://www.northlondonmusicteachers....thwood-ha6-2dj


                  Sorry to disappoint you, Caliban, but Maisie Ringham was from a Salvation Army family and probably never touched a drop. Livia Gollancz was a fine player and I played second horn to her once in a concert performance of Cosi Fan Tutti. She could blow most men clean off the stage!

                  VH

                  Comment

                  • Suffolkcoastal
                    Full Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 3299

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Auferstehen2 View Post
                    Hello Joe,

                    Likewise!

                    Sadly, since I left the UK many years ago, I've lost touch completely with the various BBC orchestras. So the BBC Phil is a northern orchestra and plays in Manchester? I'm going to look them up!

                    Many thanks for the pointer Joe,

                    Best wishes,

                    Mario
                    I lived in Manchester for a few months back in 2006 and wished I could go back. The programmes generally this season seem to be much more interesting than many of the rather uninspiring programmes devised for the London orchestras. If I was back in Manchester I expect I'd be attending a number of concerts. I hope you find more to interest you Mario.

                    SC

                    Comment

                    • Nick Armstrong
                      Host
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 26610

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Ventilhorn View Post
                      Sorry to disappoint you, Caliban, but Maisie Ringham was from a Salvation Army family and probably never touched a drop.
                      Fair enough! She looks a great lady !


                      Originally posted by Ventilhorn View Post
                      Livia Gollancz could blow most men clean off the stage!
                      "...the isle is full of noises,
                      Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
                      Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
                      Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

                      Comment

                      • MrGongGong
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 18357

                        #12
                        oooooer mrs careful now !

                        one of the very few things that I have heard on Radio 1 that is worth listening to is "innuendo bingo"

                        Comment

                        • salymap
                          Late member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 5969

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Ventilhorn View Post
                          Sorry to disappoint you, Caliban, but Maisie Ringham was from a Salvation Army family and probably never touched a drop. Livia Gollancz was a fine player and I played second horn to her once in a concert performance of Cosi Fan Tutti. She could blow most men clean off the stage!

                          VH
                          I love those orchestral back-stage stories too. I used to hear them every day from orchestral
                          librarians and there was little gossip that escaped them. Clem Relf[Philharmonia], Jack Jones {LPO], George Brownfoot [RPO}, Mark Saunders/Max Burwood [LSO] Bill Borner [BBCSO] All my good friends years ago.
                          I remember Joyce Aldous VH,

                          Comment

                          • Auferstehen2

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Suffolkcoastal View Post
                            I lived in Manchester for a few months back in 2006 and wished I could go back. The programmes generally this season seem to be much more interesting than many of the rather uninspiring programmes devised for the London orchestras. If I was back in Manchester I expect I'd be attending a number of concerts. I hope you find more to interest you Mario.

                            SC
                            Well, I have looked the BBC Phil up and they are based in Media City UK - I was there but only last week! Blast! And they play in Bridgewater Hall as well! Apart from a (yet another) Beethoven symphony cycle (although they say they haven't done one in 50 years), there's some good stuff coming up, e.g., Bach and Bruckner, Beethoven and Sibelius, etc. Just need to synchronise these dates with those at Old Trafford...

                            Thanks SC,

                            Mario

                            Comment

                            • 3rd Viennese School

                              #15
                              Sibelious 4 is dark because he was sober when he wrote it.

                              In A minor.

                              (or is it?)

                              3VS

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