Mr Burnside – Hands – and Bartok - and sounds as we hear them

[BBMmk2]

I noticed this with the iplayer, the balance not at all good.

[rank_and_file]

I think we forget that all the sound we hear from our loudspeakers has been through the Optimod sound compression system. It's quite possible that Radio 3 has a treble roll off filter in operation.

I remember an engineer from Classic FM freely admitting that they had the bass turned up so lots of bass, and presenters with DEEP voices.

Certainly what is heard on studio monitors and in halls is far superior than the emasculated sound we ultimately hear. Oddly the Beeb will play a record I have, and I will immediately play the CD or LP afterwards and, of course, the sound from my own source is far superior, especially as there is no sound compression - in fact Naim don't even give one a bass or treble filter!

[Bryn]

It's much worse on classical recordings. The Proms broadcasts were a joke on BBC R3 for example. Far too much middle and bass and no top end at all. Even on FM this should not be so as it should reach 15,000 Hz and higher.

We have lot of cloth eared producers and engineers now who can't hear above an octave over middle C. I love lots of middle and bass, but not at the expensive of the top end.

Ariosto, you should know better. The only thing above 15kHz you will find via FM is the 19kHz peak generated by the stereo multiplex carrier. Even DAB manages to range a little higher than FM these days. The iPlayer's live HD Sound option (when it is working) has a wider frequency bandwidth then either FM or DAB, only tailing off as it approaches close to its Nyquist frequency of 22.05kHz.

[Chris Newman]

Ariosto, you should know better. The only thing above 15kHz you will find via FM is the 19kHz peak generated by the stereo multiplex carrier. Even DAB manages to range a little higher than FM these days. The iPlayer's live HD Sound option (when it is working) has a wider frequency bandwidth then either FM or DAB, only tailing off as it approaches close to its Nyquist frequency of 22.05kHz.

In my experience HD only works if the programme is live (if you are very lucky). Listen Again is back to something very basic.

[Bryn]

I think we forget that all the sound we hear from our loudspeakers has been through the Optimod sound compression system. It's quite possible that Radio 3 has a treble roll off filter in operation.

Radio 3 FM is subjected to Optimod processing but DAB, the iPlayer HD Sound,and even the standard 192kbps aac offering, are not, I think you will find. They certainly have a much greater dynamic range than FM does.

[jayne lee wilson]

"If you are very lucky?" Why?
For 320kbps AAC, a broadband speed of 2Mbps+ should be easily sufficient to maintain continuity. if you are on a budget broadband deal (like BT Option 1) you may not have a high enough speed at peak-demand times for BBC iPlayer sources to function without gaps in the music or video playback freezing.
Upgrading your deal often solves the problem, and you might get the upgrade free if you're a new customer - or even a very loyal old one!

And yes, as should be well known by now, Optimod compression only applies to FM; if you (uncomfortably) switch from HDs or DAB to FM and back during climactic musical passages, you'll get a shock, the difference in level is, er, fairly obvious!

In my experience HD only works if the programme is live (if you are very lucky). Listen Again is back to something very basic.

[Ariosto]

Ariosto, you should know better. The only thing above 15kHz you will find via FM is the 19kHz peak generated by the stereo multiplex carrier. Even DAB manages to range a little higher than FM these days. The iPlayer's live HD Sound option (when it is working) has a wider frequency bandwidth then either FM or DAB, only tailing off as it approaches close to its Nyquist frequency of 22.05kHz.

I think it used to be the case that te BBC claimed FM had a 15K top limit, (with a good tuner and system) but it seems to me to be rather lower now, maybe due to the processing.

As already mentioned, the same CD compared to the broadcast sound, is really a big surprise.

Of course the sins that are perpetrated at the mixing desk will also ruin the sound.

[Chris Newman]

Sorry, Jayne. I am on Virgin and until recently everything was fine. I am on their mid-price broadband and do not have nor want a phone (I use my mobile). My neighbours and I now report problems with BBC News Channel TV. Upgrading is not that easy as it takes about an hour to get through to the company. Letters are unanswered. BT who I left for abysmal service say they will charge me for re-connection. The BBC is going downhill fast and the telephone companies do not care a toss.

Sorry I am a very old loyal one (to paraphrase your description )but do not understand your last paragraph. The problem is you talk in technical talk that I do not understand. I am not aware of how I can switch uncomfortably or comfortably between these acronyms on my computer. I have not knowingly used FM for years. DAB is available on my alarm clock but not on my computer.

My comments are aimed at the quality (and narrow volume levels) of sound available. As I have said I can only get HD during live transmission not on iPlayer playback. FM is not an option where I live in the centre of town, besides it does not carry iPlayer.

Sorry, to sound grumpy but I am reasonably happy with my computer skills. I have CLAIT and my ECDL but getting decent reception from the BBC is getting difficult. I can get excellent sound from France, Germany, Nederlands, Pittsburg USA and each requires 30 seconds to install. They have easy to follow websites. Radio 3's website and its help for users is clunky and pathetic.

Forgive the rant but for the amount I pay for my broadband (£30 a month) and for my BBC licence I expect reasonably available service.

Other boarders will tell you I am an old softy but like a lot of people on the Forum I am becoming peeved with the BBC Radio 3 standards.
Chris.

[rank_and_file]

Radio 3 FM is subjected to Optimod processing but DAB, the iPlayer HD Sound,and even the standard 192kbps aac offering, are not, I think you will find. They certainly have a much greater dynamic range than FM does.

Bryn

You obviously listen in different ways to me as I still listen through FM and my hi fi as, I presume, most Radio 3 listeners do?

I think that DAB gives an inferior sound, and I very rarely listen at my computer which has very ordinary speakers attached. I am not sure how one gets the 192kbps aac offering - is that from a TV signal or an internet feed?

[jayne lee wilson]

I was on BT Option 1 - not very good, gaps in the broadband stream nearly every weekday at peak times on iPlayer (not on Berlin DCH).
Switched to BT Option 2 (£20) - scarcely a problem for 2 years now. That's all it took. My connection isn't even fibre-optic. Your problems may relate to distance from the phone exchange plus increasing users signing up to Virgin package deals. Does your connection seem any better late at night? Have you tried a speedchecker? You might find the BBC aren't to blame for everything, heaven knows it's easy to find reasons to dislike them! Recent weeks have been dull for concerts, before the Proms I was pretty happy with the sound from RFH, Barbican etc., and as is well-known I'm a notoriously fussy digital-audiophile... my lovely Magnum Dynalab FM tuner is largely used for R4 now, I abandoned R3FM because of dynamic range compression.

Rank-and-file, DAB uses MP2 at a top rate of 192kbps, not even the level it was designed for to achieve high-quality stereo (long story)! The iPlayer feeds are at 320 kbps aac for HDs (highest rate currently used in Europe for music streaming, also found on Berlin DCH and medici) and 192 kbps aac (Listen again) which are a sonically superior MP4 codec. These are accessed via internet, R3 homepage, you take the optical or usb feed out of the PC/Mac into a DAC in the hi-fi system. I could go into more detail if you like, but i keep getting told off for doing so, so - by request only...

Sorry, Jayne. I am on Virgin and until recently everything was fine. I am on their mid-price broadband and do not have nor want a phone (I use my mobile). My neighbours and I now report problems with BBC News Channel TV. Upgrading is not that easy as it takes about an hour to get through to the company. Letters are unanswered. BT who I left for abysmal service say they will charge me for re-connection. The BBC is going downhill fast and the telephone companies do not care a toss.

Sorry I am a very old loyal one (to paraphrase your description )but do not understand your last paragraph. The problem is you talk in technical talk that I do not understand. I am not aware of how I can switch uncomfortably or comfortably between these acronyms on my computer. I have not knowingly used FM for years. DAB is available on my alarm clock but not on my computer.

My comments are aimed at the quality (and narrow volume levels) of sound available. As I have said I can only get HD during live transmission not on iPlayer playback. FM is not an option where I live in the centre of town, besides it does not carry iPlayer.

Sorry, to sound grumpy but I am reasonably happy with my computer skills. I have CLAIT and my ECDL but getting decent reception from the BBC is getting difficult. I can get excellent sound from France, Germany, Nederlands, Pittsburg USA and each requires 30 seconds to install. They have easy to follow websites. Radio 3's website and its help for users is clunky and pathetic.

Forgive the rant but for the amount I pay for my broadband (£30 a month) and for my BBC licence I expect reasonably available service.

Other boarders will tell you I am an old softy but like a lot of people on the Forum I am becoming peeved with the BBC Radio 3 standards.
Chris.

[Chris Newman]

Do not worry too much, Jayne. I do realise that you are trying to help me. Part of my problem is that I am slowly revamping my tiny pad. I am waiting/hoping for planning permission to extend which would give me a studio for painting, a kitchen diner and a roof garden with solar heating. Until then I have not got time nor room to do too much in the way of shifting things to optimise my hi fi and computer.

Like many others on the Forum I have noticed a marked deterioration in the quality of BBC 3 transmissions since they put their sound engineering out to tender. At the moment I am listening to a CD of a concert from 1971 issued on the now defunct BBC Legends label. It is of a concert from the BBC Maida Vale Studios and was one that I attended. 2 microphones for stereo: that was all. Yet it sounds clearer and more alive than anything broadcast now. On another thread Roehre who knows more about music and recordings than the rest of us put together remarked how the latest BBCMM record (Respighi and Prokofiev) does not sound as clear as older BBCMM issues.

By the way I really am enjoying working through Theodore Kuchar's Nielsen Cycle you recommended. All of the symphonies are very finely performed. Super orchestra. It is interesting I have been comparing recordings of the 5th (I am listening to my old favourite Horenstein from 1971 now). My allegiance has shifted somewhat on this one. I love the Horenstein for sentimental reasons. If I were doing Building a Library and all the recordings I have of the Fifth I would now probably go for (1)Alexander Gibson, 1977, terrifying!!! (2) Blomstedt SFSO, (3) Kuchar, he is a bit too well behaved for me in this symphony(4) Horenstein (the recording is a bit veiled compared with commercial recordings) (5) Blomstedt DNRSO .

I am disappointed with EMI's Kubelik version with the DNRSO as the first movement is so incredibly slow, the orchestra fall apart at the climax, the sidedrum is not very clear and the recording is very woolly. The second part (if it was a decent recording) beats all onlookers though. For a fabulous performance nothing beats the old 1955 Erik Tuxen (DNRSO) but the sound is old.

[Ariosto]

I've just received a CD of Heifetz playing various works all recorded between 1951 and 1954. The best sound was the 1951 recording made at Abbey Road on 78's and it is pretty good, and beats the latest Proms broadcasts by a huge margin. The later 1954 recordings were done in Hollywood using early tape machines which allowed longer takes and more editing options, and the orchestral sound is not so good - but the solo fiddle sounds very good.

I think our concept of sound (as far as recording goes) has changed over the last 60+ years and generally it has become more mellow and a lot less edgy, with too much emphasis on bass and middle.

An interesting thing though, I recently attended the Daniel Hope and Sebastian Knauer recital at the Wigmore/live BBC R3 lunchtime concert (violin/piano) and thought the sound very good in the hall, and to my surprise when I listened on R3 (FM) on Saturday to the repeat, the sound was close miked (as I had noticed in the hall) - and not so far removed from the sound of Heifetz on recordings. So even the Beeb (probably by accident) can get a more vital and edgy sound on occasion.

It seems that the Proms in that awful hall and using incompetent mixers and engineers (not to mention producers) - are likely to be very bad for the forseeable future. Another reason why I rarely listen on R3 to Prom concerts.