Mr Burnside – Hands – and Bartok - and sounds as we hear them

[Guest]

Mr Burnside’s programme yesterday 24th September on R3 called “The Hands of the Composer” was, in our view, very interesting. We thought it might not be so, but the humour and the insights into piano playing, with examples performed by some of the great pianists of the past and present, were in our view, really quite illuminating. Mr B’s conversation with Mr Hough was very entertaining, and his quip that one short Chopin piece “left one’s right arm knackered” was on the amusing side. We feel the need for more of these sorts of radio programmes on R3 – which must be cheap to make – and this would in our case make our listening times on R3 extended from virtually zero to a lot more.
Anyway, enough of this style of writing attributed to our Mr Sydney Grew GBH (– NO, not Grievous Bodily Harm – BUT God Bless ‘Im!!!)

Back to my normal speak, and I will give the connection between Bartok and what I heard later. The Bartok violin concerto No 1 was performed in the preceding programme as disk of the week, and it was performed by Mr Ehnes and the BBC Philharmonic (aka BBC Northern Symphony Orchestra) conducted by Mr Nose Da.

Now as some of you may know I have been critical of Mr Noseda as a conductor in the past, but I must give credit where it is due, and say that I thought the band’s performance was excellent, and it must have been down to at least some of Mr Noseda’s influence. I thought Mr Ehnes playing was really excellent, and he is certainly at the top of the tree as one of our younger generation fiddlers, in my opinion anyway.

But (there is nearly always a “but”) these two programmes made me think about sound, and our current usage and it’s manifestation as we hear it, certainly in recorded music. I find that since digitisation recorded sound has become extremely mellow, and even more so in the last ten years or so. Is there a fixation with beautiful sound? Has all or most of the harshness and colour been drained away, leaving us with rather restful and overly beautiful sounds? It’s a bit like playing on an old Italian fiddle, very mellow and beautiful, but maybe just lacking a bit in character and colour? (And bite!)

Listening to some of the older recording (before about 1975) of some great pianists with Mr Burnside, and listening to my CD’s and analogue records, I have a feeling that the players and the recording techniques of those days gave us a much more edgy recorded sound. Listen to most violinists before about 1960 and particularly the Russian virtuosi such as David Oistrakh, Jasha Heifetz, Nathan Milstein etc. So too, are those great pianists of the past including Arthur Rubinstein for example, recorded with a much more edgy sound and a lot more “top.”
Do members of this forum agree or disagree? Have we entered an age where recordings and maybe even live performances have become just a bit too sanitized?
I would appreciate comments from others, and I do hope Me Ventilhorn (and Mr Waldhorn) will find it worthwhile to comment on my inept and clumsy handling and descriptions of a subject that I know far too little about at this stage of my life.

[Ventilhorn]

Mr Burnside’s programme yesterday 24th September on R3 called “The Hands of the Composer” was, in our view, very interesting. We thought it might not be so, but the humour and the insights into piano playing, with examples performed by some of the great pianists of the past and present, were in our view, really quite illuminating. Mr B’s conversation with Mr Hough was very entertaining, and his quip that one short Chopin piece “left one’s right arm knackered” was on the amusing side. We feel the need for more of these sorts of radio programmes on R3 – which must be cheap to make – and this would in our case make our listening times on R3 extended from virtually zero to a lot more......

.....Back to my normal speak, and I will give the connection between Bartok and what I heard later. The Bartok violin concerto No 1 was performed in the preceding programme as disk of the week, and it was performed by Mr Ehnes and the BBC Philharmonic (aka BBC Northern Symphony Orchestra) conducted by Mr Nose Da. .....

..... Listening to some of the older recording (before about 1975) of some great pianists with Mr Burnside, and listening to my CD’s and analogue records, I have a feeling that the players and the recording techniques of those days gave us a much more edgy recorded sound. Listen to most violinists before about 1960 and particularly the Russian virtuosi such as David Oistrakh, Jasha Heifetz, Nathan Milstein etc. So too, are those great pianists of the past including Arthur Rubinstein for example, recorded with a much more edgy sound and a lot more “top.”
Do members of this forum agree or disagree? Have we entered an age where recordings and maybe even live performances have become just a bit too sanitized?

I've been banging on about this for years. That is why I prefer to listen to my old mono LPs.

I would appreciate comments from others, and I do hope Me Ventilhorn (and Mr Waldhorn) will find it worthwhile to comment on my inept and clumsy handling and descriptions of a subject that I know far too little about at this stage of my life.

I can't answer for Mr Waldhorn, but speaking as "Me Ventilhorn", I think your modesty does not become you.

VH

[doversoul1]

Ariosto

We feel the need for more of these sorts of radio programmes on R3 – which must be cheap to make – and this would in our case make our listening times on R3 extended from virtually zero to a lot more.

We wholeheartedly agree

I was going to ask you about the disc of the week and very glad to read your comment. But (there is nearly always a ‘but’) I am afraid I cannot make any comments on the technical matters of the sound. (Sorry)

[BBMmk2]

I agree with you there Ariosto! In some ways, the recordings these days, may sound sanitzed, to sheen maybe? Perhaps this is all to do with this digitalised age we live in!

[rauschwerk]

This is a complex issue, to be sure. I believe that in the LP era, master tapes often used to be recorded with 'toppy' sound because it was well known that some high frequencies would be lost in the disc cutting process. Philips, I believe, resisted this, with the result that their recordings, which sounded a bit dull on LP, sounded excellent on CD reissues. I also think it likely that the best microphones these days are superior to those used 40-50 years ago. And I wouldn't mind betting that, since it is pretty simple to manipulate sound quality using digital processing, it happens quite a lot post-production. As for Artur Rubinstein, it's quite possible that 'toppy' sound was what he liked even if something more mellow was available.

Personally, I'm quite happy with the idea that a recording is an artefact which merely kids us that we are in the presence of the musicians. All music sounds more mellow to me these days because of high frequency hearing loss.

[Ariosto]

This is a complex issue, to be sure. I believe that in the LP era, master tapes often used to be recorded with 'toppy' sound because it was well known that some high frequencies would be lost in the disc cutting process. Philips, I believe, resisted this, with the result that their recordings, which sounded a bit dull on LP, sounded excellent on CD reissues. I also think it likely that the best microphones these days are superior to those used 40-50 years ago. And I wouldn't mind betting that, since it is pretty simple to manipulate sound quality using digital processing, it happens quite a lot post-production. As for Artur Rubinstein, it's quite possible that 'toppy' sound was what he liked even if something more mellow was available.

Personally, I'm quite happy with the idea that a recording is an artefact which merely kids us that we are in the presence of the musicians. All music sounds more mellow to me these days because of high frequency hearing loss.

rauschwerk, thanks for your interesting reply.

I did take that into account (hearing loss) - but I still find that I can hear all those high frequencies on the older recordings and also in real life when I try various instruments - and also when I play in quartets and at live concerts. Although some live performing musicians these days do tend to go for mellower instruments. Some of the Strads are just getting too mellow along with many other old Italian makers of that period, say up to 1790 or thereabouts. I had a modern (1944) French fiddle out on trial recently and boy, was that instrument bright!! (So bright it started to recite tables ...)

And yes, you are absolutely correct about modern mics, and whereas the old BBC ribbon mics (of which the most famous is still produced today) had a gradual cut off from about 15,000 Hz, many of todays condenser mics go up to 25,000 Hz with maybe a tail off around 22,500 Hz. (Above most people's hearing ability even when young).

I think that digital post production processing may have a marked effect on what we hear in the final result. I hear a lot of engineers and producers talking about cutting off high frequencies in post production, and the love of equalisation programs to correct mistakes or situations in the original recording process. (Usually they "tame" the frequencies starting at about 11KHz). I think this has been going on particularly since the mid 1980's.

Close miking was more the order of the day for soloists back then and you can hear a bite on every note in fast passages when Heifetz performed. (He liked close miking).

Ventilhorn - thanks for your valuable experience and input, and I'm pleased you liked the humour of my modesty - a trait which I'm trying to lose, but perhaps I should try and keep? Maybe you do not think that modesty doth become me?

[LeMartinPecheur]

I heard it said in the early 70s that the thin toppy sound of CBS recordings was to compensate for to a general lack of treble in US loudspeakers of the time. Not sure though if this would be real hi-fi speakers, or run-of-the-mill record-players/ stereograms.

I do tend to find CBS LPs of that period generally overbright compared to European ones, but RCA ones much less so, which is puzzling if the thesis about loudspeakers is correct.

Any comments, from either side of the pond?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

ref comments on Composer's hands in both voices Ariosto i am in total agreement, delightful programme and good to hear Mr Burnside again, i miss his Sunday morning programme still ...

[and find the puff for the current Sunday Morning on the Freeview screen ..'music and intelligent comment' ...presumptuous, like claiming a sense of humour for oneself ....]

[salymap]

Interesting thread Arioso. Like doversole I am not qualified to comment on the technical side. However, it makes me determined to play again some of my old LPs, particularly chamber music and piano solo which sound much clesrer to me, suffering from hearing loss at the moment, than anything I hear today on R3.

[Ariosto]

Saly and Doversoul - your comments and opinions are most welcome - don't hold back - you are as qualified as any of us!!

[Ariosto]

ref comments on Composer's hands in both voices Ariosto i am in total agreement, delightful programme and good to hear Mr Burnside again, i miss his Sunday morning programme still ...

[and find the puff for the current Sunday Morning on the Freeview screen ..'music and intelligent comment' ...presumptuous, like claiming a sense of humour for oneself ....]

Thanks Calum - as usual your comments are of great value.

Talking of Jazz - something I often fail to do - I don't know why - probably more out of ignorance - do you think that the great tradition of recorded Jazz bucks the trend? I find most Jazz recordings delightfully articulate, with good honest sounds and much less jiggerypokery. The recordings are much more akin to the occasional live performance that I witness. I love the gutsy sound.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

.. possibly because jazz does not have to compete with deutsch gramophon and other large labels with marketing .... when many years ago Shake Keane played at our school, he complained vigorously about how recordings and equipment in those days [50s/60s] missed out on bass, and i suspect most jazz artists are more inclined to want the lower and middle sound to feature and are far less fussy about the top end than they are about getting the rhythm section heard, most jazz harmony is defined below the upper registers and most jazz solo instruments are similarly in middle registers and jazz ensembles do not have to sex up the strings ....?

jazz is a performance art and i also think that many artists want their recordings to reflect the sound they hear in the room at the gig .... even ECM famous for its sound stage is more about clarity [ afficionados of the label may well correct me here!]

please make comment on Jazz, we can not only stand it, your contribution would be most welcome ... ignorance never deterred Jon3!

[Ariosto]

.. possibly because jazz does not have to compete with deutsch gramophon and other large labels with marketing .... when many years ago Shake Keane played at our school, he complained vigorously about how recordings and equipment in those days [50s/60s] missed out on bass, and i suspect most jazz artists are more inclined to want the lower and middle sound to feature and are far less fussy about the top end than they are about getting the rhythm section heard, most jazz harmony is defined below the upper registers and most jazz solo instruments are similarly in middle registers and jazz ensembles do not have to sex up the strings ....?

jazz is a performance art and i also think that many artists want their recordings to reflect the sound they hear in the room at the gig .... even ECM famous for its sound stage is more about clarity [ afficionados of the label may well correct me here!]

please make comment on Jazz, we can not only stand it, your contribution would be most welcome ... ignorance never deterred Jon3!

Thanks for the invite Calum. I will try not to upset the apple cart like I do all the time on the more sedate classical boards!! I expect I will get some stick quite deservedly, for saying that.

I've long been a Jazz lover but unfortunately my attempts at joining in myself have been pretty bad. My wife has done some Jazz piano and played at a few gigs - and we have a good friend and her husband who are accomplished jazzers and do some great gigs.

I would have thought though that some Jazz players would love the high frequencies, all that sizzle from the cymbals and high hat, and rim drumming. (I hope I have those descriptions correct, as I say, I'm a bit nervous about putting my foot in it).

I used to work with a lot of musicians from the spectrum of light music and Jazz and once worked with Stephan Grapelli who I admired hugely as a Jazz musician and superb fiddle player.

And it would be a huge relief not to have the strings sexed up. I always like that more slightly raw sound. Well it's the only thing I can do, play raw!

So I will gingerly add a few clangers on the Jazz board from time to time.

[Serial_Apologist]

I would have thought though that some Jazz players would love the high frequencies, all that sizzle from the cymbals and high hat, and rim drumming. (I hope I have those descriptions correct, as I say, I'm a bit nervous about putting my foot in it).

While in general agreement with Calum (above) on jazz recordings, I do agree with Ariosto on lack of high frequencies in many a straight ahead jazz recording, particularly as I've noticed since the 1990s, producing a "shhhhhhhhh" as opposed to "sssssssss" from cymbals - together with an over-compensated, over-reverberative boominess in the acoustic bass department. This is supposed to be jazz, not dub or drum 'n' bass, and it has me reaching to turn down the bass fader on my system, only to find a resulting weakening, rather than the properties of the instrument being brought clearly to the fore. It's definitely in the recordings, not my system, and I would challenge anyone to compare this relatively recent fashion with the acoustic bass sound on any of their favourite Blue Notes from the '60s.

S-A

[Ariosto]

It's much worse on classical recordings. The Proms broadcasts were a joke on BBC R3 for example. Far too much middle and bass and no top end at all. Even on FM this should not be so as it should reach 15,000 Hz and higher.

We have lot of cloth eared producers and engineers now who can't hear above an octave over middle C. I love lots of middle and bass, but not at the expensive of the top end.