Europa Concert on BBC 4

[Alison]

I thought Simon was going to be someone different, a 'new' kind of artist who would break

the mould.

All the showmanship should'nt really be his game.

[Ariosto]

Simon R's antics

In the end *most* (but not all) conductors are not proper musicians. I understand SR played the triangle a bit before taking up stick waving.

Did anyone notice that (1) he did very visually clever but totally useless things with his hands and fingers when he was most needed (2) very few if any of the players EVER looked at him (except maybe for a laugh) and (3) they treated it all more like chamber music, got on with it, listened to each other, and forgot he was there.

But does one really want to hear a good band having to play in such an over-indulgent way?

(Answers on a postcard please).

[Barbirollians]

I sometimes think the Rattle detractors are hearing a performance they expect rather than the one being given .

It struck me as a thrillingly unbuttoned performance and streets ahead of the very dreary Prom performance of the symphony that some raved about on here

[Ventilhorn]

I thought Simon was going to someone different, a 'new' kind of artist who would break

the mould.

All the showmanship should'nt really be his game.

Good morning, Alison.

I think it is only fair to point out that showmanship should be a conductor's aim for the benefit of the audience.

That dramatic gesture to the pricipal trumpet at the point of an important entry is not for the player's benefit - it is to draw the audience's attention to what is coming next; the player has no need of such a cue, he would come in there anyway.

A conductor's work is done in rehearsal, as far as the orchestra is concerned. When the concert begins, they perform what they have chosen to take from that rehearsal (depending on the conductor's influence) and the maestro goes into his "involve the audience" routine.

I have nothing against Sir Simon Rattle. He achieved wonders with the CBSO and, for me, is now settled into a comfortable position which satisfies both the orchestra and himself. To my ears , there has been no falling off of the high standard that we have come to expect of this fine orchestra and to me, there is nothing wrong with the status quo.

I recall a comment made by the professor of horn in BRNO, who entertained our horn section after a concert in which we played Schubert's Great C major for the sixth consecutive night on a European tour: -

"... I thought the orchestra played very good the symphony and the conductor (Rudolf Schartz) gave the performance his blessing!"

What can be wrong with that?

VH

[amateur51]

In the end *most* (but not all) conductors are not proper musicians. I understand SR played the triangle a bit before taking up stick waving.

Did anyone notice that (1) he did very visually clever but totally useless things with his hands and fingers when he was most needed (2) very few if any of the players EVER looked at him (except maybe for a laugh) and (3) they treated it all more like chamber music, got on with it, listened to each other, and forgot he was there.

But does one really want to hear a good band having to play in such an over-indulgent way?

(Answers on a postcard please).

Isn't it interesting how people hear/see different things

As I understand it, being a non-practicing non-musician ( but a lovely little whistler!) the 'heavy lifting' gets done at rehearsal, especially with a piece that an orchestra has not played much before, like the Rachmaninov. What I saw/heard was Rattle emphasising particular balances and rhythmic patterns and, as I said before, I heard the difference so his conducting was more of an aide-memoire, I guess. All I can say by way of evidence is that it sounded more alive than any other performance of this symphony than I have heard hitherto.

And as for over-indulgence - please, Ariosto - who wants to hear restrained Rachmaninov?

[salymap]

And after all, in the privacy of one's own home, it is easy to enjoy a performance with eyes closed, even if
it's on TV. I sometimes do this with Gergiev and also Rattle and Andrew Davis.

I don't remember Sargent, Boult and Beecham pulling faces, although others may disagree

[Ariosto]

I don't disagree with you at all Saly. It has all become a show now with a competition as to who can pull the most ridiculous faces. A lot of conductors don't concentrate and listen anymore.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

the star of the concert for me was

[EdgeleyRob]

Watched this morning on i player.
I thought it was a wonderful concert.(I don't care what faces Rattle pulls or what Kennedy wears etc etc. I just marvel at the superb musicianship).
Also after the BPO there were some classic old grey whistle test performances from amongst others David Bowie,Bob Marley and Alex Harvey.

[Chris Newman]

I have listened to (and watched) the Rachmaninov Symphony twice now and feel I shall do so again this week as it is one of my favourite 20th century symphonies. I first heard it with Sir Adrian Boult too many years ago to mention and was mightily impressed in a way that the piano concerti rarely strike home for me. In the last few years I have been lucky enough to hear it live Semyon Bychkov live (and Karabits got pretty close on the radio this year) at the Proms. It is a fabulous late romantic work yet never becomes sloppy or mawkish except in inept hands. Simon Rattle for me drew one of the finest performances of a work I love. I expect the video editor must be hiding after his mammoth booboo between movements.

I loved the ultra-flamenco version of the Guitar Conc.

[Richard Tarleton]

I loved the ultra-flamenco version of the Guitar Conc.

Hmmm.

He appeared to be playing a negra, a flamenco guitar with rosewood back and sides rather than cypress hence the warmer tone but with the low string action of a flamenco guitar hence all the rattles and buzzes which are part and parcel of flamenco but unwelcome in a classical piece. Flamenco guitarists favour speed and percussiveness over beauty of tone and this guy was no exception. The performance lacked the beauty of tone essential in this work, besides all the flamenco embellishments.

I was particularly irritated by Rattle's remark about classical guitarists not being a particularly rhythmical lot. Having recorded a particularly beautiful version of this work with Bream 20 years ago he should have known better than make such a fatuous remark.

I'd love to know how he learnt this work - by ear, or from the dots?

I love flamenco - I sat feet away from Paco Peña on his first visit to the UK 45 years ago. He disarmingly said that whenever he tried to play classical, it came out like flamenco. I didn't enjoy this particular bit of crossover.

[makropulos]

I was particularly irritated by Rattle's remark about classical guitarists not being a particularly rhythmical lot. Having recorded a particularly beautiful version of this work with Bream 20 years ago he should have known better than make such a fatuous remark.

Totally agree with you, Richard. "Fatuous" sadly defines most of what Rattle says when he speaks, so it's not a surprise. But you're quite right that it was a particularly silly point given the way the finest classical guitarists play. Rather insulting to them, I thought. (I'm no guitar fanatic, but of the ones I've heard live, Bream, Williams, Ogden, Isbin, and earlier players like Yepes and Segovia - these people are surely serious musicians by any measure - rhythm included).

[Ariosto]

Much as I hate criticising Mr Rattle, I did also think his comments about guitarists was perhaps a little silly. I personally also did not enjoy the concerto performance very much, as I found it rather dull.

[Nick Armstrong]

Much as I hate criticising Mr Rattle, I did also think his comments about guitarists was perhaps a little silly. I personally also did not enjoy the concerto performance very much, as I found it rather dull.

Oh that's made me chuckle a treat, Mr Osto or may I call you Ari?

Is nurse trying a new combination of meds?

[BBMmk2]

I just having on iplayer, the Rattle Mahler 8. Just heard R Srauss's fantastic Fest Musik der Stadt Wien! Great piece this!

Rather a poignant comment from Sir Simon when he announced the passing of Kurt Sanderling. A good gesture, I think.