Double and triple tongueing

[Tony Halstead]

Hmmm... I just looked it up on Wikipedia, where the spelling is 'tonguing'.
BUT -
can we really believe Wikipedia when elsewhere in the same article, we find the following two flawed statements?
1)
"A silent “tee” is made when the tongue strikes the reed or roof of the mouth causing a slight breach in the air flow through the instrument." ( My underlining of 'strikes').
NB: The tongue does NOT 'strike' the roof of the mouth, of course, it is quickly withdrawn from either the roof of the mouth or the back of the teeth, thereby allowing the pent-up air to flow.
2)
"Tonguing is indicated in the score by the use of accent marks." ( Once again, my underlining).
This is nonsense indeed and hardly worth commenting on!

[Pabmusic]

"I wonder if Jonathan Woss has ever had a go at playing the flute?"

Thanks for that, VH!

Sorry if I am now being pedantic, but, what's the correct spelling?
'tongueing'
or
'tonguing'?

Not pedantic at all. The OED gives 'tonguing', though it began as 'tongue-ing' - now that would seem pedantic nowadays! (My father nevertheless insisted on writing 'all right' and 'to-day' well into the 1980s.)

[Pabmusic]

Hmmm... I just looked it up on Wikipedia, where the spelling is 'tonguing'.
BUT -
can we really believe Wikipedia

I'd always be wary of Wikipedia until there's some corroboration. Some of the articles are very good, but you've just demonstrated why caution is needed. However, the usual way of forming an '-ing' word from a root that ends in '-e' is to leave the '-e' off. Think of ice/icing, rate/rating, probe/probing, etc.

[Auferstehen2]

Sorry if I am now being pedantic, but, what's the correct spelling?

'tongueing'
or
'tonguing'?

Well, not being British, I’m always a little careful of my spelling. In my O.E.D., every description after the noun tongue does NOT omit the “e”, hence the title of my thread. I too noticed that Wikipedia disagreed, so thought it safer to stick with the good old (and rather dependable) O.E.D. – sorry if I got it wrong!

BTW, in my original post, I asked for an example of triple tongueing – can someone help please from (preferably) a mainstream work? Or is it more or less left to the individual to decide whether to double-tongue like crazy or casually saunter through a triple-tongue passage (I jest, of course, never having had to do either)?

Thanks to all,

Mario

[Tony Halstead]

Well, not being British, I’m always a little careful of my spelling. In my O.E.D., every description after the noun tongue does NOT omit the “e”, hence the title of my thread. I too noticed that Wikipedia disagreed, so thought it safer to stick with the good old (and rather dependable) O.E.D. – sorry if I got it wrong!

BTW, in my original post, I asked for an example of triple tongueing – can someone help please from (preferably) a mainstream work? Or is it more or less left to the individual to decide whether to double-tongue like crazy or casually saunter through a triple-tongue passage (I jest, of course, never having had to do either)?

Thanks to all,

Mario

Well, I thought that both I and Ventilhorn had cited examples: I gave Ravel's Rhapsodie Espagnole and Alborada del Gracioso, and VH gave Rimsky's 'Scherezade'.
BTW A composer never specifies 'triple tongue' - as you rightly suggest this is entirely up to the player.
On the other hand composers do ask specifically for 'flutter-tongue'.

[Auferstehen2]

My apologies both to you Waldhorn and Ventilhorn - very useful, thank you. I'm going to listen to those straightaway - sorry again for missing your earlier posts.

Best wishes,

Mario

[BBMmk2]

Hi there!!

Goodness, a brass musicians thread!

As far as triple tonguing goes, there is not m uch call foir it on my instrument(apologies if that not so). My instrument being the EEb bass. I am told I do triple tonguing but goodness knows how! (as I never really been taught it properly!

[salymap]

But is the horn always grouped with the brass section? It always seems to be sitting on the fence, or have I got it wrong.?

[Tony Halstead]

Ideally, the horn section should be placed somewhere between the 'heavy' brass and the woodwind, hopefully not pointing its bells at either of the latter two sections. Sometimes this can't be achieved, where platform / stage space is limited.
Although a horn is a brass instrument it is also an 'honorary member' of the woodwinds!

[Ventilhorn]

Well, not being British, I’m always a little careful of my spelling. In my O.E.D., every description after the noun tongue does NOT omit the “e”, hence the title of my thread. I too noticed that Wikipedia disagreed, so thought it safer to stick with the good old (and rather dependable) O.E.D. – sorry if I got it wrong!

BTW, in my original post, I asked for an example of triple tongueing – can someone help please from (preferably) a mainstream work? Or is it more or less left to the individual to decide whether to double-tongue like crazy or casually saunter through a triple-tongue passage (I jest, of course, never having had to do either)?

Thanks to all,

Mario

My reliable Collins English Dictionary gives definitions for either spell:

I quote them here, as printed:

tonguing, vb to articulate (notes played on a wind instrument) by the process of tonguing.

tongueing n. a technique of articulating notes on a wind instrument. See single-tongue, double-tongue, triple-tongue.

So you pays your money and you takes your choice, but I think it is clear from the above that Mario's original spelling was the correct one.

To return to the main subject itself; I watched Sir Simon Rattle conducting the Berlin Philharmonic on Sky Arts 2 this afternoon and they played Enescu's Rumanian Rhapsody Nº 1. (Splendidly BTW)

This was one of Silvestri's favourite encores and I suppose I must have played it at least 30 times. At the speed at which he used to take the closing bars, I would say that any brass player who could play the last five 6/8 bars (30 successive quavers) without resorting to triple-tongueing, should have a place in the Guiness Book of Records.

VH

[Ventilhorn]

Although a horn is a brass instrument it is also an 'honorary member' of the woodwinds!

Try telling them that!

Good evening Waldhorn

VH

[BBMmk2]

Bit like the cor anglais!!

[Tony Halstead]

Nice one!