Double and triple tongueing

[Guest]

What exactly is the difference please?

I've asked this question before on the BBC Boards, but I was ignored.

When I went to my very first classical concert at the RFH quite a few years ago now in the late seventies, I noticed with disbelief how the violinists were playing repeated notes very fast, by their bowing back and forth across the strings. Of course, I thought, silly me, they don’t pull the bow towards them for each note.

And then I was fascinated to find out how the trumpeter plays those very fast notes in the Tchaikovsky Capriccio Italien, and I came across the term double and triple tongueing. Now, double tongueing is easily explained. Just like the bow on a violin (I’m keeping things simple here folks, for ignoramuses like me), the tongue shoots forwards and backwards – hence to make the “T” sound the tongue shoots forwards, and to make the “K” sound it shoots backwards, hence T-K-T-K-T-K-T-K-T-K.

This much is clear, even to me.

But triple tongueing? I understand it is something like T-T-K or T-K-T, but this sounds awkward and feels it too, if I try it.

Can someone explain please? A good example from a well-known work for demonstration would help.

Thank you,

Mario

[David Underdown]

T-K-K T-K-K would be the usual approach for triple tonguing. The K sound comes from the throat, so the Tongue doesn't really have to move at all

[Ventilhorn]

What exactly is the difference please?

I've asked this question before on the BBC Boards, but I was ignored.

When I went to my very first classical concert at the RFH quite a few years ago now in the late seventies, I noticed with disbelief how the violinists were playing repeated notes very fast, by their bowing back and forth across the strings. Of course, I thought, silly me, they don’t pull the bow towards them for each note.

And then I was fascinated to find out how the trumpeter plays those very fast notes in the Tchaikovsky Capriccio Italien, and I came across the term double and triple tongueing. Now, double tongueing is easily explained. Just like the bow on a violin (I’m keeping things simple here folks, for ignoramuses like me), the tongue shoots forwards and backwards – hence to make the “T” sound the tongue shoots forwards, and to make the “K” sound it shoots backwards, hence T-K-T-K-T-K-T-K-T-K.

This much is clear, even to me.

But triple tongueing? I understand it is something like T-T-K or T-K-T, but this sounds awkward and feels it too, if I try it.

Can someone explain please? A good example from a well-known work for demonstration would help.

Thank you,

Mario

Oh Mario,

I'm sure that I explained this to someone on the BBC boards. You nearly have it right, but there is a slight error in the triple tonguing, which should be T-T-K T-T-K T-T-K etcetera.

The reason for this is that the K is not as incisive as the T and in a three note figure, it is nearly always the third note which is the least important of the three.

Try it for yourself, as slow or fast as you like and I'm sure you will understand the reason for doing it this way.

It's always a pleasure to hear from you.

VH

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I avoid double/triple tonguing on the the oboe - much better to practise rapid single-tonguing. But when Richard Strauss asks for flutter tonguing - It sounds so horribly flat and it's no wonder so many oboists cheat and play repeated notes as quickly as possible instead.

[Dave2002]

When I played flute regularly I usually went with tonguing as fast as possible, but for really fast work one does sometimes need double or triple tonguing.

I think the player has to work out what's best for him/her. It might be TkT TkT or TkT KtK or some other variant. Maybe also it makes a difference which instrument is being played.
VH's suggestion for TTK TTK might not work for everyone. Can triple tonguing be done on a brass instrument, or is it only for woodwinds? Are there any well known pieces which might demonstrate this?

Similarly, is flutter tonguing possible/used on brass?

I suppose a really dedicated player should be able to do most combinations, and maybe record the results to hear which sounds best to others - something which should now be quite easy and affordable, but was probably
not a realistic option decades ago.

[Tony Halstead]

Hello Dave2002,
On the horn, either triple tonguing or exceedingly fast single tonguing is needed for several works, 2 of which spring to mind, both by Ravel:
1) 'Rhapsodie Espagnole'
2) 'Alborada del Gracioso'

I myself can't and never have been able to do 'conventional' triple tonguing.
However I do have a quite good double tongue facility so that e.g. in a nominal bar of 6/16 or 12/16 instead of either 2 or 4 units of triplets I play 3 or 6 units of double tongue i.e. TKTKTK TKTKTK with a bit more emphasis on the 'K' where it occurs as the 1st of a triplet.
Hope this makes sense?

[Dave2002]

Hello Dave2002,
On the horn, either triple tonguing or exceedingly fast single tonguing is needed for several works, 2 of which spring to mind, both by Ravel:
1) 'Rhapsodie Espagnole'
2) 'Alborada del Gracioso'

...

Hope this makes sense?

Thanks. Perfectly. Now, what about flutter tonguing on brass instruments?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Thanks. Perfectly. Now, what about flutter tonguing on brass instruments?

Flutter tonguing is very easy on the flute, except for people who cannot roll their "R"s. Now it occurred to me that in Scotland everyone rolls their "R"s, so how is it that some of us south of the border cannot. I ask this in all seriousness.

[Ventilhorn]

When I played flute regularly I usually went with tonguing as fast as possible, but for really fast work one does sometimes need double or triple tonguing.

I think the player has to work out what's best for him/her. It might be TkT TkT or TkT KtK or some other variant. Maybe also it makes a difference which instrument is being played.
VH's suggestion for TTK TTK might not work for everyone. Can triple tonguing be done on a brass instrument, or is it only for woodwinds? Are there any well known pieces which might demonstrate this?

Similarly, is flutter tonguing possible/used on brass?

I suppose a really dedicated player should be able to do most combinations, and maybe record the results to hear which sounds best to others - something which should now be quite easy and affordable, but was probably
not a realistic option decades ago.

A most interesting post, Dave.

Yes indeed. Brass players do resort to triple tonguing and to hear an example where even a player with the very fastest single tongue (which I never had) would have to resort to triple tonguing, listen to a brass band Cornet Soloist. Sheer magic!
An example of when I might have used double tonguing (Tk Tk) would be in something like Borodin's 2nd symphony (Scherzo) if the conductor got the bit between his teeth!
The finale of Scheherezade, (trumpet followed by 1st horn) is an example where an orchestral player might resort to a bit of triple tonguing if the conductor was starting to get a bit excited.

Flutter tonguing for brass players occurs only occasionally. Benjamin Britten used it a lot in his Sinfonia da Requiem and an excrutiatingly difficult flutter tongue for the horn from G up to high C in his opera "Albert Herring". (supposed to represent the whirring of the mechanism of a cuckoo clock)

There is an anatomicall aspect to tonguing. The fastest players usually have a thin tongue. Dennis Brain and the trumpet player Billy Rushworth were noted for their ability to single tongue as fast as most of us could double or triple tongue.

What is important is not the method, but the result; as far as the listener in the audience is concerned.

Clear as mud? Well, I tried, but as you say with woodwind , everyone must adopt what suits them best.

VH

[Tony Halstead]

Flutter tonguing on a horn ( I can't speak for all other brass instruments as I don't play them) is MUCH, MUCH easier than triple tonguing IMHO.
However, as EA points out in message #8, you have to be able to roll your Rs.
Also - IMHO - this somewhat grotesque if not comical effect is very much over-used by composers of the 2nd Viennese school.
An effective and rather charming early use of it can be heard in Strauss' 'Don Quixote'.

[mangerton]

Flutter tonguing is very easy on the flute, except for people who cannot roll their "R"s. Now it occurred to me that in Scotland everyone rolls their "R"s, so how is it that some of us south of the border cannot. I ask this in all seriousness.

Lack of prrrrrrrrractice?

Seriously, I don't know. I remember not long after I learned to read seeing the word "orchestra", probably in the RT. (OK, I was precocious.) I asked my mother why the man on the radio said "ochestra". "That's just the way they speak", she said.

I might be opening a huge can of worms here, but it all comes down I suppose to the rhotic/nonrhotic difference. Non rhotic speakers can pronounce"r" perfectly well when they want to - usually when it's not required, as in "laura norder". It's probably a cultural thing.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I know 2 English flautists who can only fake a flutter tongue by doing a French "R" from the back of the throat.

[Pabmusic]

I suppose to the rhotic/nonrhotic difference. Non rhotic speakers can pronounce"r" perfectly well when they want to - usually when it's not required, as in "laura norder". It's probably a cultural thing.

Indeed it is. There's good evidence that spoken English has gradually been losing 'r' sounds for centuries, though not evenly throughout Britain (though undoubtedly including the entire eastern side of England). Since the advent of TV, the trend has speeded up - especially as many accents commonly encountered are non-rhotic ones (RP in older days and 'estuary' or 'chav' now). Just consider how often you hear 'wah-uh' for 'water', even in accents that very recently pronounced both the 't' and the 'r'.

When something like this really takes hold, it doesn't take more than a generation or two to lose the ability to pronounce sounds that are no longer needed - trilled 'r's for instance - leaving those areas that still retain them seeming unusual or (worst of all) quaint. Truth is that 250 years ago, '-er' seems always to have been trilled (and pronounced '-ar' to boot).

I should think that accounts for some of the difficulty players find in flutter-tonguing. Unless they're Scots, or come from the West Country or some other such area, of course.

[Ventilhorn]

Indeed it is. There's good evidence that spoken English has gradually been losing 'r' sounds for centuries, though not evenly throughout Britain (though undoubtedly including the entire eastern side of England). Since the advent of TV, the trend has speeded up - especially as many accents commonly encountered are non-rhotic ones (RP in older days and 'estuary' or 'chav' now). Just consider how often you hear 'wah-uh' for 'water', even in accents that very recently pronounced both the 't' and the 'r'.

When something like this really takes hold, it doesn't take more than a generation or two to lose the ability to pronounce sounds that are no longer needed - trilled 'r's for instance - leaving those areas that still retain them seeming unusual or (worst of all) quaint. Truth is that 250 years ago, '-er' seems always to have been trilled (and pronounced '-ar' to boot).

I should think that accounts for some of the difficulty players find in flutter-tonguing. Unless they're Scots, or come from the West Country or some other such area, of course.

Most interesting, especially as the Americans pronounce the "R" heavily in words that we do not; as in "wo-r-ld" for instance.

I wonder if Jonathan Woss has ever had a go at playing the flute?

VH

[Tony Halstead]

"I wonder if Jonathan Woss has ever had a go at playing the flute?"

Thanks for that, VH!

Sorry if I am now being pedantic, but, what's the correct spelling?
'tongueing'
or
'tonguing'?