Rattle conducts Elgar

[Ein Heldenleben]

I was unaware that CFM listeners were so well versed in a historical approach to approbation. Good for them. Such a pity that you appear not to be so well versed.

Didn’t the early Proms programmes have a request not to “strike matches “ during the quiet bits?
Bit by bit any behaviour outside a very narrow range of largely middle class norms is being “outlawed” in this country. I really couldn’t care less whether people clap between movements. Concerts are not religious services despite the ludicrous efforts of musicians to turn their work into a kind of substitute religion. (Yes Richard Wagner I’m blaming you)

[Bryn]

Didn’t the early Proms programmes have a request not to “strike matches “ during the quiet bits?
Bit by bit any behaviour outside a very narrow range of largely middle class norms is being “outlawed” in this country. I really couldn’t care less whether people clap between movements. Concerts are not religious services despite the ludicrous efforts of musicians to turn their work into a kind of substitute religion. (Yes Richard Wagner I’m blaming you)

I often record friends' musical performances (all such performers are long-experienced, classically trained musicians) and many request that I edit out ALL applause. Some also introduce their performance by making a point of requesting that applause is withheld until the end of a sequence of related pieces. Such requests are usually complied with. That said, let's face it, quite a few composers have intentionally tricked their audience into early applause via false endings.

Do those who object strongly to applause between movements also object to retuning of instruments and the clearing of throats, etc. during such breaks, too? Mahler called for a significant pause of a minute or so between Parts 1 and 2 of his 3rd Symphony. Would applause at the end of Part 1, if Mahler's request was respected, be acceptable or not? . . .

[rauschwerk]

I recorded a Prom 'Planets' and had to cut out the applause after every movement.

When The Planets was done at this year's Proms there was no applause between movements. This surprised me a little.

[Lordgeous]

At our lunchtime song recital in Truro Cathedral last week, after the opening song (Parry’s ‘My Heart is like a Singing Bird’) my (soprano) daughter explained clearly to the audience that any further applause should be limited to the two slots separating the first group from the second (Elgar’s ‘Sea Pictures’) and then after the German group (Schumann and Richard Strauss).

What then happened? They clapped between every single song in the recital, even between the ‘Sea Pictures’!

Annoying… but one could hardly complain at the time, as most of the listeners had seen and heard her from an early age in the cathedral choir, and were witnessing the first flowering of a fabulous young soprano voice.
.

Apologies for the PDM*
*proud dad moment

Do name her so we can follow her progress.

[smittims]

I wonder if dislike of inter-movement applause is what prompts some conductors to leave almost no pause between movements, as Simon Rattle did at this year's Mahler 2. As to tuning, Sir Adrian Boult said that when a violin soloist retuned after the first movement 'I feel like breaking my stick over his head.'

[LHC]

I was unaware that CFM listeners were so well versed in a historical approach to approbation. Good for them. Such a pity that you appear not to be so well versed.

I'm well aware that composers in the classical period would have expected applause between movements, and indeed in some cases, for individual movements to be encored. However, as far as I am aware the convention of silence during performances developed towards the end of the 19th Century, so I suspect that such an approach to approbation may be rather less historically accurate for pieces such as Elgar's 2nd Symphony which were written in the 20th Century.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I often record friends' musical performances (all such performers are long-experienced, classically trained musicians) and many request that I edit out ALL applause. Some also introduce their performance by making a point of requesting that applause is withheld until the end of a sequence of related pieces. Such requests are usually complied with. That said, let's face it, quite a few composers have intentionally tricked their audience into early applause via false endings.

Do those who object strongly to applause between movements also object to retuning of instruments and the clearing of throats, etc. during such breaks, too? Mahler called for a significant pause of a minute or so between Parts 1 and 2 of his 3rd Symphony. Would applause at the end of Part 1, if Mahler's request was respected, be acceptable or not? . . .

I suppose my attitude is coloured by the fact that I used to go to many more operas than concerts where the music and yes musical mood is broken up by applause all the time. I could write a book about it. For example there’s a clear musical break after Che Gelida Manina in Act 1 Of La Boheme . But it’s more difficult to applaud after Recondita Armonia in Act 1 Tosca. Sometimes the applause happens late , the music has already continued and there’s a moment when conductors have to plough on or decide to abandon. There are arias where people get caught out by false endings .As Antonio Pappano shrewdly commented - it doesn’t matter it’s all a bit of a circus…

[smittims]

At the premiere of Elgar's first symphony in Manchester in 1908 the composer (who wasn't conducting) was called to take a bow after the first movement and 'several times' after the Adagio. Yet applause was taboo at concerts in churches, even of secular music, and also, curiously, at morning concerts. So the long ovation at the premiere of 'The Dream of Gerontius' was a surprise to its composer, who wasn't in a location from where he could quickly respond.

I don't think it's possible to draw a line anywhere in history over this question.

[Keith]

I'm well aware that composers in the classical period would have expected applause between movements, and indeed in some cases, for individual movements to be encored. However, as far as I am aware the convention of silence during performances developed towards the end of the 19th Century, so I suspect that such an approach to approbation may be rather less historically accurate for pieces such as Elgar's 2nd Symphony which were written in the 20th Century.

I suspect that silence between the movements became a "norm" rather later in the 20th century. I'm pretty sure that there are accounts of the Elgar 2nd Symphony's first performance where the composer was disconcerted by the lack of warmth and enthusiasm in the inter-movement applause. I do wonder how much the LP record affected a change in listening and concert practice in allowing a piece to be consumed, without a break, in a private, uninterrupted silence. The post-war phenomenon of a "popular" musicology (Penguin guides and the like) might also have played a part in cultivating an awareness of and listening for the "unity" of a piece in the concert-going and record-buying public.

[Keraulophone]

Do name her so we can follow her progress.

Thank you for asking….

Katherine Gregory (age 20)

Truro Cathedral Choir (2015-2020)
Choir of Trinity College, Cambridge (2020-present)

Brahms Requiem - sop solo from 41’57. Trinity College Chapel, 2/11/21. (Slight nerves at the start!)

https://youtu.be/ppruSYpPQZw

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[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I suspect that silence between the movements became a "norm" rather later in the 20th century. I'm pretty sure that there are accounts of the Elgar 2nd Symphony's first performance where the composer was disconcerted by the lack of warmth and enthusiasm in the inter-movement applause.

The lack of warmth and enthusiasm at the premiere of Elgar 2 was at the end of the work. I think the composer likened their response to “stuffed pigs”, but the quiet ending of the work doesn’t invite the same response as the ending of the previous symphony.

[smittims]

Maybe the audience felt loud applause inappropriate, if they'd been told it was dedicated to the late King's memory. Convention still ruled bahaviour for many in 1911.

[makropulos]

The lack of warmth and enthusiasm at the premiere of Elgar 2 was at the end of the work. I think the composer likened their response to “stuffed pigs”, but the quiet ending of the work doesn’t invite the same response as the ending of the previous symphony.

I think that's probably the point. The very enthusiastic first review of the premiere in The Times (25 May 1911) noted that 'The work was received with much favour, though with rather less enthusiasm than usual, and the composer, who conducted it, was repeatedly called at the close.'

[Nick Armstrong]

The concert now seems to be scheduled for Tuesday 20th, 7.30pm.

Bump …. Elgar coming up….

[Nick Armstrong]

Well I thought that was a superlative Elgar 2 - interpretation & playing beyond criticism. I loved the crackling trumpets in a couple of the early flourishes… and the prominent harps at various key points. The latter might have been down to recording balance (LHC may perhaps confirm, having been there) because there was one ‘boing’ in a quiet bit near the end which seemed artificially loud. But generally-speaking, the pacing, the sweep and urgency when required, the introspection ditto… wow