Sir Charles Groves

[Guest]

Over on the 'Prom 29: Friday 5th August at 7.30. p.m. (Mahler 2)' thread, Ofcachap mentions Charles Groves' conducting Mahler symphony no 6 as being one of his earliest Mahler 'live' memories.

These days I suspect that Sir Charles is largely forgotten by the recording industry that he served well for many years and he is not often mentioned on these pages. The centenary of his birth is in 2015 - will EMI mark this with a magnificent boxed set of his recordings for them? Will the BBC release some of the 'live' treasures that must exist in its vaults?

As Radio 3 (and Third Programme) enthusiasts many here will have heard his broadcasts and LPs and CDs, and will treasure his pioneering spirit, both for 'modern' and 'difficult' music as well as for 'British' music (often all three categories at once ).

What are your memories of Sir Charles Groves, in performance and on recordings?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Groves

[kuligin]

Sir Charles conducted the first concert I attended, a school outing to the RLPO perhaps 1968, programme Reznicek Donna Diana, Mozart Piano Concerto 20 and Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique. I still remember the excitement of that first hearing of the march to the scaffold.

I heard him at least half a dozen times thereafter, although most of my concert going was and is in Manchester, and always with great pleasure, he seemed a very reliable servant of the composer in a very wide repertoire, not given to extremes, just very musical. Certainly championed British composers who we don't hear played a great deal today. The last concert I heard him conduct included Mathias' Violin Concerto

My favourite recording is the LP of Frank Bridge

[Dave2002]

I heard Groves many times. He always seemed a solid conductor, but perhaps not always a very inspiring one. He did bring a complete Mahler cycle to Liverpool, which was an achievement. The performance of Mahler's 8th in Liverpool cathedral was a spectacular affair, but showed many of the problems of performing that piece in large spaces. Gergiev's St Paul's performance a couple of years back had similar features and problems. I think my seat in the Liverpool performance was under the organ pipes, about a thousand miles away from the orchestra, choir, and the soloists who i think were high up over an arch. I do remember Groves bringing Bruckner to Liverpool too, with an enjoyable performance of the fourth symphony. I knew some members of the orchestra. I think they liked Groves, though some guest conductors could produce different sounds.

It was actually John Pritchard who preceded Groves who had a greater effect on me, at least initially. I still recall a brilliant performance of Ravel's Daphnis and Chloe by him.

[Chris Newman]

My best memories of Sir Charles were three performances of Turangalila. The first was on the radio with the BBC Northern SO and his first performance of the work. It was incredibly fast. I had never heard of Messiaen but was grabbed and a year later he did it again at the RFH with the BBCSO, a little slower. That summer he conducted it at the Proms. All the performances had involved Yvonne Loriod and John Ogden and it was a marvellous feeling to stand a few feet from the composer at the Prom.

His love of British music was legendary and I love his recordings.

One Prom I remember involved John Ogden and his wife Brenda Lucas with separate Steinways. Groves had to stand between the pianos to be seen by the orchestra. He was not a tiny figure nor were the pianists and the stage was very crowded ().

He was much loved by the LPO according to a friend in the violas. Despite his very energetic conducting (like Norman Del Mar or Giandrea Noseda) he was rather podgy and was nicknamed "Blood, Sweat and Tears".

He retired near Salisbury and worked hard as President of the Avon Valley Concerts Society.

[amateur51]

My best memories of Sir Charles were three performances of Turangalila. The first was on the radio with the BBC Northern SO and his first performance of the work. It was incredibly fast. I had never heard of Messiaen but was grabbed and a year later he did it again at the RFH with the BBCSO, a little slower. That summer he conducted it at the Proms. All the performances had involved Yvonne Loriod and John Ogden and it was a marvellous feeling to stand a few feet from the composer at the Prom.

His love of British music was legendary and I love his recordings.

One Prom I remember involved John Ogden and his wife Brenda Lucas with separate Steinways. Groves had to stand between the pianos to be seen by the orchestra. He was not a tiny figure nor were the pianists and the stage was very crowded ().

He was much loved by the LPO according to a friend in the violas. Despite his very energetic conducting (like Norman Del Mar or Giandrea Noseda) he was rather podgy and was nicknamed "Blood, Sweat and Tears".

He retired near Salisbury and worked hard as President of the Avon Valley Concerts Society.

Many thanks for these memories Chris.

Thanks to Board member Clive Heath I am able to direct you to his wonderful website and to a taped recording of Messiaen, Turangalila Symphony: BBC Symphony Orchestra conducted by Charles Groves with John Ogdon (Piano) and Jeanne Loriod (Ondes Martenot). Broadcast from the Albert Hall, Wednesday 6 August 1969

http://www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk/tapes.php

A truly cracking performance and a fitting tribute

[salymap]

Iheard Sir Charles Groves a lot on the radio but don't recall going to any of his concerts. I think like Basil Cameron, earlier, he was a good if not great conductor, reliable and well liked. I knew his cousin, Vincent Groves slightly, a viola player in the BBCSO and known to all as Charlie Rhubarb.

I never found out why

[amateur51]

Iheard Sir Charles Groves a lot on the radio but don't recall going to any of his concerts. I think like Basil Cameron, earlier, he was a good if not great conductor, reliable and well liked. I knew his cousin, Vincent Groves slightly, a viola player in the BBCSO and known to all as Charlie Rhubarb.

I never found out why

This is a classic, salymap!

[salymap]

Have just found I have Groves conducting Walton Symphony no 2 with the Bournemouth SO, recorded from a BBC lunchtime concert in Bournemouth Winter Gardens. I shall play it as I am having a little Walton Festival all on my own.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I had been to just one orchestral (Halle) concert in Manchester (1960), but soon afterwards I had the opportunity to see the RLPO under Charles Groves in rehearsal on a Saturday afternoon. They were playing Mozart's A major Piano Concerto (K.488) and Dvorak's New World Symphony (which was no. 5 in those days). Most of the other children in out group were less interested in the proceedings, but this did not distract from the excitement of the occasion.

The only time I'm certain that I saw Sir Charles in performance was when he conducted Elgar's "The Apostles" in Liverpool Cathedral. However, I think he may have conducted one of the BBC Northern Orchestra's live lunchtime proms in Manchester Town Hall.

[makropulos]

Over on the 'Prom 29: Friday 5th August at 7.30. p.m. (Mahler 2)' thread, Ofcachap mentions Charles Groves' conducting Mahler symphony no 6 as being one of his earliest Mahler 'live' memories.

These days I suspect that Sir Charles is largely forgotten by the recording industry that he served well for many years and he is not often mentioned on these pages. The centenary of his birth is in 2015 - will EMI mark this with a magnificent boxed set of his recordings for them? Will the BBC release some of the 'live' treasures that must exist in its vaults?

As Radio 3 (and Third Programme) enthusiasts many here will have heard his broadcasts and LPs and CDs, and will treasure his pioneering spirit, both for 'modern' and 'difficult' music as well as for 'British' music (often all three categories at once ).

What are your memories of Sir Charles Groves, in performance and on recordings?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Groves

I remember a lot of Charles Groves concerts, many of them with affection. He did a lot of unusual repertoire and I remember particularly Hugh Wood's Violin Concerto at the Festival Hall (the RLPO on a visit to London), and a second half that included Tchaikovsky's Fourth Symphony - a performance that belied Groves's reputation as a safe pair of hands, since it was most exciting. Very good too was another Festival Hall concert (RLPO again I think) with Elgar 1. On another occasion I heard him conduct in Reading Town Hall (!) with the RLPO in a programme that ended with the finished version of Schubert's Unfinished. That wasn't such an exciting performance, but it was fascinating to hear it, of course. I remember quite a few Proms as well - always dependable if not inspiring. But he always seemed such a decent man. Recently I've been enjoying the latest reissue of his EMI Delius Mass of Life. Beecham (or Del Mar) it isn't, but still an enjoyable performance.

Things all went a bit wrong when he went briefly to ENO - not a good appointment especially given what a hard act he had to follow (the other Sir Charles, no less). But I always think of Groves with fondness - and wish I had been able to hear more of his Liverpool concerts.

Incidentally, here is a charming little clip of Charles Groves as one of the luckiest men in the world...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jUG9ERn2So

[Chris Newman]

Thank you for that clip, Makropoulos. Doesn't he make a charming interviewer?

[Barbirollians]

An absolutely thrilling Elgar 2 with the BBC PO or RLPO I cannot remember which , at Sheffield City Hall in the late 1980s. Undoubtedly, the best performance of an Elgar symphony I have heard live.

[Ferretfancy]

I understand that Sir Charles was not always popular with the RLPO, because he liked to introduce difficult items in the Musica Viva series, but I would not want to criticise him for that.
I have quite a few fine recordings by him, including:-

BRIDGE Enter Spring and other works

DELIUS Life's Dance, Eventyr etc. ( A nice shout from the orchestra! )

BRIAN Symphonies 8 and 9 at a time when there was virtually nothing by Brian available.

SULLIVAN Irish Symphony

DVORAK Symphony No. 6

MENDELSSOHN and SAINT-SAENS Piano Concertos ( Daniel Adni )

BLISS Morning Heroes

It would be very good for British music if an edition does appear from EMI.

[makropulos]

FF: I'm so glad you mentioned Morning Heroes - I've always loved that record. As for his Delius, as well as Mass of Life and the pieces you mention, I always had a soft spot for an LP of Sea Drift with John Noble.

Chris: I agree - I think he comes across as a really delightful interviewer.

[makropulos]

Here's quite an interesting interview with Groves from the 1972 Gramophone:

http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/March%201972/33/772806/CHARLES+GROVES