Sir Charles Groves

[Richard Tarleton]

What are your memories of Sir Charles Groves, in performance and on recordings?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Groves

Ha! Only heard him live once, standing in at the last minute for an ailing Klemperer in 1971 or 2. It was of course with the (then) New Philharmonia, and the work was Bruckner 7. To make up for the disappointment they threw in Mozart 40. It was a rotten performance of the Bruckner, obviously little or no rehearsal, the blaze of brass completely drowning the arching strings in the first movement coda. A critic the next day said the brass "cut through the orchestral texture like field artillery".

I have the DVDs and LPs of Julian Bream's ¡Guitarra! - A Musical Journey through Spain, where CG conducts the Concierto de Aranjuez with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe - on the DVD sleeve they spell his name Grove, which was careless of them.

[Frances_iom]

I can remember him at the helm of the Guildford Philharmonic in the Sunday afternoon concerts in the old Civic Hall from the mid 80s to probably 1990 - can't bring any outstanding one to mind however

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

He was a noted Elgar conductor, of which "The Light of Life" was possibly his finest recording of all. (Not at all keen on his "Caractacus" though.)

[Alison]

Before my time but I understand he gave a landmark Beethoven Cycle with the RPO (?)
at Wembley.

I endorse the choice of Havergal Brian symphonies 8 and 9.

[Dave2002]

Incidentally, here is a charming little clip of Charles Groves as one of the luckiest men in the world...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jUG9ERn2So

Thanks for this. Groves' gentle, almost chiding comments to the "Stirling Moss of octaves" fits in well with my memories of him, and he was absolutely right about that. Stunning, if misguided, piano playing! To be able to play at speed must be hard, but faster (significantly) than it should be - v. odd!

It's interesting to see a mix of enthusiastic and some rather less so comments here. Perhaps at his best he was really rather good, but I felt that his concerts were not always going to set the world on fire.

It is also good to be reminded of the Turangalila performance in Liverpool - I'd forgotten about that, but I was at the concert. Definitely one of the high spots.

[BBMmk2]

Ah, such a kind man I thought. i was conducted by Sir Charles way back in 1975, at Lancaster University. (Maybe because we were students taking part in the very first ever Brass Band Summer School!!) He conducted us in that Holst classic 'A Moorside Suite'. The other conductors were Harry Mortimer and Elgar Howarth.

[Franzl01]

Going back many years, I was a schoolboy saving up my pocket money to buy a record of 'my' orchestra, the Bournemouth Municipal as it was then. I was in hospital when the announcement came that the Bournemouth Council had decided to withdraw funding, so I got my mother to send my 'savings' to aid the fund started by Charles Groves, I think, to keep the band afloat. I had the most charming letter from Charles Groves thanking me, even though my contribution was so small. A delightful man, and what I think of as a good 'kapellmeister'. There aren't enough of them around nowadays, when every new boy is lauded to the skies before they have even got out of nappies!

[Petrushka]

Yes, that 1969 Turangalila that Am51 refers to upthread is indeed a thrilling performance. I only saw Sir Charles on one occasion in 1978 in Stoke on Trent when he conducted the RLPO in Beethoven 7, the remainder of the programme sadly eluding me. It was Groves' perfirmance of Mahler 2 that allegedly inspired one Simon Rattle to become a conductor.

I remember some good concerts heard on R3 or seen on TV: the first Proms outing of Shostakovich 15, a hugely entertaining Peter Maxwell Davies St Thomas Wake and an inspired bit of programming in a 1977 Liverpool concert that coupled Shostakovich 2 with the Britten War Requiem.

[Ventilhorn]

These days I suspect that Sir Charles is largely forgotten by the recording industry that he served well for many years and he is not often mentioned on these pages. The centenary of his birth is in 2015 - will EMI mark this with a magnificent boxed set of his recordings for them? Will the BBC release some of the 'live' treasures that must exist in its vaults?

As Radio 3 (and Third Programme) enthusiasts many here will have heard his broadcasts and LPs and CDs, and will treasure his pioneering spirit, both for 'modern' and 'difficult' music as well as for 'British' music (often all three categories at once )

.

I first encountered Charles Groves in 1958 when I auditioned for the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra.

He elected to accompany me on the piano and sightread the tricky accompaniment to Gilbert Vinter's "Hunters Moon" as if he had been playing it all his life. I have never felt so at ease as I did that morning - I could have gone on playing all day!
Charles was, I believe, one of the best accompanists (as a conductor) that I ever played for. He only had to hear a soloist's cadenza once and he could bring the orchestra back in "right on the button" every time. He could even follow the eccentricities of Malcuszinsky!

What are your memories of Sir Charles Groves, in performance and on recordings?

Have you got a spare half hour, or should I post my memories a bit at a time? There are many to recount.

Incidentally, Charles and Hilary Groves has a daughter called Sally. Could this be the Sally Groves who often contributes to BBC music programmes? I think she was learning the flute as a teenager.

VH

[amateur51]

.

Have you got a spare half hour, or should I post my memories a bit at a time? There are many to recount.
VH

Great stuff, VH. I would love to hear your Charles Groves stories. I am a great admirer of his work and it would be a great thrill to hear about him from a working colleague

[kuligin]

I believe Sally Groves works for the publishers Schott, certainly she was in charge of the publishing of Michael Tippetts scores

[Ventilhorn]

Great stuff, VH. I would love to hear your Charles Groves stories. I am a great admirer of his work and it would be a great thrill to hear about him from a working colleague

Right, then, here we go; but first, a little background:

Message #22 by Franzl01 refers to the fact that the BournemouthMunicipal orchestra, founded in the early part of the 20th century by Dan Godfrey was funded by Bournemouth Corporation (with reduced forces during the war years) and restored to its full strength in 1947.

I was a schoolboy then and travelled to hear their first concert under the newly appointed conductor Rudolf Schwarz.
Schwarz had been interned in Auschwitz and was hampered by considerable damage to his arms, so his beat could only be described as "erratic"

The concert consisted of Vaughan Williams "Wasps" overture, Beethoven's "Emperor" concerto and Schubert's "Great C major" symphony. It was that concert that influenced my decision to play in a symphony orchestra.

When Rudolf Schwarz moved on to the City of Birmingham Orchestra his place on the podium was taken by Charles Groves, who had established a good reputation as the Conductor of the then BBC Northern Orchestra.

Charles Groves recalled his first concert with a wry smile.

“The National Anthem was no problem,” he said. “A signal to the `roll and batter'
department as I ascended the rostrum brought orchestra and audience to their feet and I beat
my way through the piece without incident.

The first item on the programme was the Tannhauser Overture by Wagner. As the audience settled into their seats, I felt an itch at the back of my right ear and raised my hand to scratch it. The orchestra, still accustomed to the ways of Mr. Schwarz, started to play!”

That was the beginning but worse was to follow.

Bournemouth Corporation decided to terminate its other band (mostly elderly ex-members of the Municipal Orchestra) who used to play on the bandstand in the Lower Pleasure Gardens. They realised that they could not compete with Eastbourne, who used to hire all the best Staff bands, Guards, R.A., RAF central band etc. for their summer season

The local branch of the Musicians Union, membership of which was compulsory at that time, called all of its members out on strike in support of the "old codgers" and Bournemouth seized on the opportunity to withdraw its patronage; so the Municipal orchestra ceased to exist. Some local businesses, under the chairmanship of the aviation pioneer Sir Alan Cobham, set about to raise funds.
The Arts Council came in with subsidies and the Bournemouth Symphony orchestra was founded under the auspices of the newly formed "Western Orchestral Society"

Fund raising raffles were organised and Charles Groves was to be seen alongside the orchestra members in Bournemouth Square, selling raffle tickets for the "Save the Orchestra" fund.

Enough for now. The anecdotes will follow in my next post.

VH

[Roehre]

Right, then, here we go; but first, a little background:

eagerly looking forward to the next episode, Ventilhorn

[amateur51]

Right, then, here we go; but first, a little background:

Message #22 by Franzl01 refers to the fact that the BournemouthMunicipal orchestra, founded in the early part of the 20th century by Dan Godfrey was funded by Bournemouth Corporation (with reduced forces during the war years) and restored to its full strength in 1947.

I was a schoolboy then and travelled to hear their first concert under the newly appointed conductor Rudolf Schwarz.
Schwarz had been interned in Auschwitz and was hampered by considerable damage to his arms, so his beat could only be described as "erratic"

The concert consisted of Vaughan Williams "Wasps" overture, Beethoven's "Emperor" concerto and Schubert's "Great C major" symphony. It was that concert that influenced my decision to play in a symphony orchestra.

When Rudolf Schwarz moved on to the City of Birmingham Orchestra his place on the podium was taken by Charles Groves, who had established a good reputation as the Conductor of the then BBC Northern Orchestra.

Charles Groves recalled his first concert with a wry smile.

“The National Anthem was no problem,” he said. “A signal to the `roll and batter'
department as I ascended the rostrum brought orchestra and audience to their feet and I beat
my way through the piece without incident.

The first item on the programme was the Tannhauser Overture by Wagner. As the audience settled into their seats, I felt an itch at the back of my right ear and raised my hand to scratch it. The orchestra, still accustomed to the ways of Mr. Schwarz, started to play!”

That was the beginning but worse was to follow.

Bournemouth Corporation decided to terminate its other band (mostly elderly ex-members of the Municipal Orchestra) who used to play on the bandstand in the Lower Pleasure Gardens. They realised that they could not compete with Eastbourne, who used to hire all the best Staff bands, Guards, R.A., RAF central band etc. for their summer season

The local branch of the Musicians Union, membership of which was compulsory at that time, called all of its members out on strike in support of the "old codgers" and Bournemouth seized on the opportunity to withdraw its patronage; so the Municipal orchestra ceased to exist. Some local businesses, under the chairmanship of the aviation pioneer Sir Alan Cobham, set about to raise funds.
The Arts Council came in with subsidies and the Bournemouth Symphony orchestra was founded under the auspices of the newly formed "Western Orchestral Society"

Fund raising raffles were organised and Charles Groves was to be seen alongside the orchestra members in Bournemouth Square, selling raffle tickets for the "Save the Orchestra" fund.

Enough for now. The anecdotes will follow in my next post.

VH

Once again, great stuff VH

I'm very much looking forward to the next instalment

[Ventilhorn]

I'm very much looking forward to the next instalment

The Bournemouth Municipal Orchestra was, as its name implies, basically the property of Bournemouth Corporation and normally gave its concerts in Bournemouth; with the occasional outing to venues such as Salisbury or Winchester Cathedrals by invitation.

Now, with the founding of the new orchestra, it was the Western Orchestral Society that was responsible for raising the cash and a new association called "The Western Authorities Association" was convened to attract guaranteed income from the towns and cities throughout the West region; ranging from Portsmouth on the one side and as far afield as Truro to the west.
These city councils gave guarantees of a fixed annual contribution in return for a specified number of public concerts (and, in some cases, concerts for school children)
Bournemouth came in with their share, against fierce opposition from the ratepayers who were saddled with an extra 3p on the rate and I believe that it was pointed out that whenever the orchestra was accorded a broadcast, the name Bournemouth appeared before the eyes of Radio Times listeners, whereas Eastbourne, Hastings, Bognor and Torquay did not.

So it was in Torquay that my next anecdote is based:

I always travelled by car to out of town engagements. I hated coach travel with its unneccesary coffee stops and I liked to set off for home immediately after a concert and not have to suffer travelling all round Christchurch, Poole and Bournemouth dropping people off, before finally being delivered home and it was when I arrived in Torquay that my next anecdote begins.

The orchestra's Concert Manager used to ride a little two-stroke motor bike, because he had not passed a driving test. Normally, the General Manager would convey conductor and soloist in the Orchestra's large Vauxhall, but Arthur had recently taken and passed his driving test and he was entrusted with conveying Charles Groves down to Torquay's Town Hall.

When I arrived, I was greeted by a very pale faced maestro:

CG Did you come down by car today?

Me Yes, you know I always do. Why?

CG Can you give me a lift back after the concert?

Me Of course, but I thought you came with Arthur.

CG Yes ... but ..

Me Tell me about it.

CG Well, we were doing all right until we were approaching this roundabout, just before Axminster. Arthur said "which way?" and I answered "Straight across". So he drove straight over the roundabout and bounced off the other side!
I think I'll just go and sit down for ten minutes.

More to come tomorrow.

VH