Bruckner: Symphony no. 9 (Radio 3 in Concert - 3.06.18)

[kea]

(basically, what SMPC did:



an example of something SMPC could have done that imo would have been a slight improvement, & obviously bear in mind I'm not a scholar and just made this up in 2 minutes



obviously, this final D major pedal point is where the various completions diverge the most from one another—& notable that none of the published conclusions are convincing. also even more notable is that there is no D major pedal point anywhere in Bruckner's sketches, and all "completions" have simply been based on the assumption he would have written one)

[Richard Barrett]

Very interesting, thanks for your thoughts and efforts there! But see the edit to my previous post - to which I would add: it's very suspicious to me how much less original the SMPC finale is than what Bruckner wrote in the preceding movements. I'm not at all sure that "scholars" are at all the best people to undertake work like this (cf. Cooke's Mahler 10 which I also don't find very satisfactory), as opposed to composers with a sense of imaginative necessity (cf. Cerha's third act of Lulu, which I do). The former are always concerned at some level that everything they do should be "justifiable". Bruckner worked under no such constraints.

[kea]

Very interesting, thanks for your thoughts and efforts there! But see the edit to my previous post - to which I would add: it's very suspicious to me how much less original the SMPC finale is than what Bruckner wrote in the preceding movements.

Agree w/that—I think the most successful moments here are the ones that actually break out of the mold of what Bruckner "might" have done. There is probably a need for a professional composer w a deep understanding of Bruckner's music/considers Bruckner an influence to get involved; scholar-composers who got involved for the primary purpose of writing tonal music in the 21st century tend to be way more cautious than Bruckner was. I can't think of any such composers active at the moment; maybe Georg Friedrich Haas but I think he'd find it an unappealing vehicle for his primary career goal of self-promotion >.>

[kea]

Other pieces that could be pressed into service as finales for Bruckner 9: Grisey's Transitoires & Dérives; Mahler's Totenfeier; Schoenberg's symphonic interlude from Die Jakobsleiter (why not complete 1 incomplete work with another incomplete work??)

(Also, on listening to the Rattle live performance of the completed finale: this continues to be the moment that stands out & seems like something Bruckner might have done, mostly because it's distinct enough from what Bruckner "usually" does & therefore from the rest of the completed movement.)

[Pianoman]

I'm not at all sure that "scholars" are at all the best people to undertake work like this (cf. Cooke's Mahler 10 which I also don't find very satisfactory), as opposed to composers with a sense of imaginative necessity (cf. Cerha's third act of Lulu, which I do). The former are always concerned at some level that everything they do should be "justifiable". Bruckner worked under no such constraints.

Yes, I was thinking about this when trying once to get to grips with Brian Newbould's completion of Schubert's 10th - the Berio 'Rendering' is a much more satisfying way to hear the extant Schubert material to my ears..

[Richard Barrett]

Yes, I was thinking about this when trying once to get to grips with Brian Newbould's completion of Schubert's 10th - the Berio 'Rendering' is a much more satisfying way to hear the extant Schubert material to my ears..

Indeed so - for example Newbould wouldn't have dared to put in the accompanying figuration that Berio begins a few bars into the piece, but it actually makes the music sound more like Schubert!

[ahinton]

Very interesting, thanks for your thoughts and efforts there! But see the edit to my previous post - to which I would add: it's very suspicious to me how much less original the SMPC finale is than what Bruckner wrote in the preceding movements. I'm not at all sure that "scholars" are at all the best people to undertake work like this (cf. Cooke's Mahler 10 which I also don't find very satisfactory), as opposed to composers with a sense of imaginative necessity (cf. Cerha's third act of Lulu, which I do). The former are always concerned at some level that everything they do should be "justifiable". Bruckner worked under no such constraints.

Very interesting and thought provoking comments by you and kea, for which many thanks.

Your comment about "scholars" and their need for some kind of academic "justification" for the ways in which they accomplish their editorial /reconstructive work as a poor substitute for the work of "composers with a sense of imaginative necessity" is a valid point insofar as it goes, but your dissatisfaction with Cooke's Mahler 10 seems to overlook the fact that the team of four who worked on it (as distinct from that which worked on the finale of Burckner 9) included three composers and only Cooke himself was not one.

[Bryn]

Very interesting and thought provoking comments by you and kea, for which many thanks.

Your comment about "scholars" and their need for some kind of academic "justification" for the ways in which they accomplish their editorial /reconstructive work as a poor substitute for the work of "composers with a sense of imaginative necessity" is a valid point insofar as it goes, but your dissatisfaction with Cooke's Mahler 10 seems to overlook the fact that the team of four who worked on it (as distinct from that which worked on the finale of Burckner 9) included three composers and only Cooke himself was not one.

Both Samale and Mazzuca of the quartet of completers of the finale of Bruckner's 9th are composers, even if not particularly well known ones.

[Richard Barrett]

Both Samale and Mazzuca of the quartet of completers of the finale of Bruckner's 9th are composers, even if not particularly well known ones.

Neither, I suspect, are they anywhere near the imaginative level of Berio or Cerha, being of a rather conservative bent as composers as far as I can work out. I did say "composers with a sense of imaginative necessity"!

[ahinton]

Neither, I suspect, are they anywhere near the imaginative level of Berio or Cerha, being of a rather conservative bent as composers as far as I can work out. I did say "composers with a sense of imaginative necessity"!

You did indeed - but should it be inferred from your having done so that you might be wary of placing Matthews, Goldschmidt and Matthews in such a category?...

[Bryn]

You did indeed - but should it be inferred from your having done so that you might be wary of placing Matthews, Goldschmidt and Matthews in such a category?...

My guess would be 'glass half full' rather than 'glass half empty'.

[ahinton]

My guess would be 'glass half full' rather than 'glass half empty'.

I wouldn't even hazard such a guess.

At least Glass was not one of the collaborators...

[Bryn]

I wouldn't even hazard such a guess.

At least Glass was not one of the collaborators...

You can say that again.

[ahinton]

You can say that again.

!!!