Vienna Philharmonic New Year's Concert 2018

[kernelbogey]

Please let’s not be too harsh on Pet, as I read it he was merely explaining some of the background and made the specific point that he was not defending outdated practises.

[jonfan]

There's a wonderful picture in the latest Decca Ring mastering of the six harps used in the Solti Das Rheingold final scene, recorded in 1958, where five were female players. Also in 1964, in the BBC's 'Golden Ring' for television, the harpist behind Solti's shoulder was again female. So harps led the charge which seems to have almost petered out. How thankful we should be for our own orchestras, and especially our glorious NYO, where these issues are simply not there. And on keeping the VPO sound: a quote from the late, great George Guest of St John's, Cambridge, when placing a new chorister next to an establshed member of the boys' section, 'Make a noise like him.'

[Richard Tarleton]

So harps led the charge

I'm not sure that they did, jon - harps always seem to have been a law unto themselves. The all-male LSO had a female harpist in Mme Scheffel-Stein - if anything it was unusual in having a principal male harpist in Osian Ellis. Why harps are different I don't know, but an exception seems to have been made for them. Perhaps Richard B can shed more light?

[jean]

...a principal male harpist in Osian Ellis...

Harpists should be not only female, but Welsh too. Osian Ellis managed one of the two.

Mair Jones was the RLPO's principal harp in the 1950s.

[Richard Tarleton]

Harpists should be not only female, but Welsh too. Osian Ellis managed one of the two.

As did Mme Scheffel Stein Let's not forget Derek Bell, Andrew Lawrence-King, and (going back a bit) Carolan, Ludovico.....

Lovely man . I had the pleasure and privilege of meeting and playing to him, when he was adjudicating a school music cimpetition.

Wandering a bit OT here, sorry.

[Once Was 4]

She is primarily a flautist, who also plays the piccolo, and is engaged as the second flute in the VPO. She is also the first female wind player to be appointed to the VPO.

Some very interesting comments here. I have been obsessing a bit lately with the (all-male) Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra during and at the end of World War 2. They did not even have a female harpist (and the harpist that they had was murdered, alongside one of the oboe players, by a roving gang of thugs in the lawless jungle that was Berlin in 1945). Of course central to this story was Sergiu Celibadache. Famously, when he took over the Munich Philharmonic Orchestra he tried to sack the female Principal trombone. See: http://www.timescolonist.com/enterta...exism-1.628198
Happily for all of us she won the battle but it must have been at some cost to her.
There is a film on YouTube of Celibadache rehearsing the Berlin Philharmonic right at the end of his life and it is clear that female players were showing open contempt for him.
Certainly Sir John Barbirolli was no such sexist: he appointed a female Principal trombone (Maisie Ringham) to the Halle when he re-built it and also a female horn player (the late Enid Roper) who was a stalwart of the orchestra until 1968.
Certainly in my 26 years at Opera North there was at least one woman in the horn section for all but the first three years and, when there were personnel changes due to illness etc., and the section was all-male it did feel odd. On the other hand I found myself on more than one occasion to be the only male in an otherwise all-female section and this was perfectly natural. I have got to say that the only overt sexism that I ever came across in my time was on certain local Musicians Union committees and here it was rife, embarrassing and, bluntly, should have been stamped down on hard - but wasn't. These men were from a different era (and all now deceased) but I am sure that there are younger versions around. But, remember what happened to the dinosaurs!

[vinteuil]

... remember what happened to the dinosaurs!

... they evolved into becoming birds.




.

[Prommer]

Certainly Sir John Barbirolli was no such sexist: he appointed a female Principal trombone (Maisie Ringham) to the Halle when he re-built it and also a female horn player (the late Enid Roper) who was a stalwart of the orchestra until 1968.

He wouldn't have dared: Lady Barbirolli was a distinguished player!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Please let’s not be too harsh on Pet, as I read it he was merely explaining some of the background and made the specific point that he was not defending outdated practises.

Quite so. Never shoot the messenger. One cannot justify the VPO's historical position re women players, but if they really are selecting by "blind" testing, then perhaps they are getting it right at last.

[Keraulophone]

Harpists should be not only female, but

also be able to sport an Elgar moustache:

(The unmissable Hugh Webb of the John Wilson Orchestra)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I have got to say that the only overt sexism that I ever came across in my time was on certain local Musicians Union committees and here it was rife, embarrassing and, bluntly, should have been stamped down on hard - but wasn't. These men were from a different era (and all now deceased) but I am sure that there are younger versions around. But, remember what happened to the dinosaurs!

Thank you for the fascinating anecdotes. The Opera North Orchestra is Britain's Vienna Philharmonic - an opera orchestra which also plays regularly in the concert hall.

But the dinosaur comparison is no longer a particularly relevant one, now that it seems that their demise, after 150,000,000 years, was caused by an sudden unavoidable catastrophe, rather than their inability to adapt. The MU, as you described them, knew exactly what they were doing.

[jonfan]

I hope Once Was 4 is wrong and the MU is now totally reformed. It’s great when you say the mix is not noticed. I attended a recent performance of Messiah with the Royal Northern Sinfonia and a critic pointed out that the whole violin section was female. I hadn’t noticed.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I hope Once Was 4 is wrong and the MU is now totally reformed. It’s great when you say the mix is not noticed. I attended a recent performance of Messiah with the Royal Northern Simfonia and a critic pointed out that the whole violin section was female. I hadn’t noticed.

With similar situations in most youth orchestras, this is likely to happen more and more.

[jean]

(The unmissable Hugh Webb of the John Wilson Orchestra)

He's called Hugh though, so he must be Welsh.

[ahinton]

He's called Hugh though, so he must be Welsh.

Wouldn't he have to be "Huw" for that to be reasonably assumed? (RVW's Hugh the Drover wasn't Welsh, nor was Hugues Cuénod, nor are Hugh Laurie or Hugh Wood, for example)...