How to fix Mahler's second

[ahinton]

No Member ahinton, if you take the trouble to think about the matter a little, you will see that Member johnb is right to blame Van Beethoven.

See said member's post above(!) I was well aware of his meaning when I read it, actually, but thought that it was nevertheless worth running with it momentarily, especially since I had already drawn attention to Beethoven in this context...

Once again Geoffrey Sharp that reliable man backs him up. Continuing on the question of "the homogeneity that a work must have in order to merit the term 'symphonic'" (see message 1), Mr. Sharp writes the following:

"This is precisely why, in my opinion, Beethoven's Choral Symphony, after three magnificent movements, comes such a cropper at the end. Even Mahler who excelled as a song-writer (as Beethoven did, notably in An die ferne Geliebte) could not dovetail song into symphony without leaving scars and blotches which become evident to the least tutored listener, who is prepared to use his ears and remember what has gone before. Mahler's Eighth Symphony escapes this general condemnation because it is genuinely a choral symphony, not an instrumental work with a choral 'bit' tacked on for effect."

It cannot be denied that Mr. Sharp shows tremendous penetration there and every word is right!!

It certainly can - and now it will; if there is a redeeming feature about what your G# writes, it is enshrined in the words "in my opinion". He is entitled to his opinion. We (that's to say all those who happen not to share it) are likewise entitled to ours. All that he (and, by implication, you also) appear to believe is that a symphony that includes vocal soloist/s and/or a chorus can only be a symphony if those voices are present more or less from the start, hence your remark

Dr. Williams's Sea Symphony is a considerably better effort than Mahler's Second we find, because the chorus, coming in with a big shout right at the start, is much more integrated into the symphonic form. In fact it is the best of all Williams's symphonies.

I don't believe that it is the best of Vaughan Williams's symphonies, for all that "we" find it to be so - and it might have been something of a shame had it been so, given its position as the first of his nine - but it is a fine work nonetheless.

The idea that Mahler "tacked on" the vocal writing in his second symphony "for effect" is beyond risible, suggestive as it might be that the composer got stuck midway and couldn't think of any other way out of his symphony - a notion that is surely (typed it correctly this time!) bereft of all credibility.

Anyway, if you still feel that Mahler's second symphony is such in dire need of so substantial and fundamental a "fix", perhaps you will oblige; that task should keep you occupied for quite a while! Although unsure as to which orchestra and conductor (if any) might be persuaded to take on the task, "we" accordingly look forward to the first (and possibly last) performance of Mahler's Insurrection Symphony, which will have come to be on a somewhat larger scale than the original, since it Grew and Grew and Grew (the phrase "Klopstock and barrel" came fleetingly to mind, but fortunately it went therefrom as swiftly as it came)...

[mercia]

lucubrations

I've had to pack away my OED because I'm moving house, could anyone help me with this please?

[verismissimo]

You may well ask, hercule. I believe the original version of the Beachboys song was "Good Lucubrations", but they were persuaded by a Philistine record company executive to change it. Dumbing down or what!

[ahinton]

I've had to pack away my OED because I'm moving house, could anyone help me with this please?

Have you packed http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lucubration away as well?

[ahinton]

You may well ask, hercule. I believe the original version of the Beachboys song was "Good Lucubrations", but they were persuaded by a Philistine record company executive to change it. Dumbing down or what!

The former, very obviously! - and a perfect example of what would happen if Mahler's Second Symphony were fundamentally revised and truncated with all the vocal parts thrown out unceremoniously like so many babies with so much bathwater (phew! - back on to the subject!)...

[mercia]

Now that we have fixed Mahler 2 and Beethoven 9 could we turn our attention to Ravel's Bolero ( in dire need of fixing I'm sure you agree). Personally we would recommend adding (funnily enough) a chorus, (right from the beginning of the piece), humming the tune at first, I am looking for a suitable text for later on. We feel this is just what it needs and we look forward to Mr Sharp's views on this ( is he any relation of Cecil?). We must say that the use of the "Royal We" does wonders for our self esteem.




I can't believe I was so rude here - humble apologies

[johnb]

hercule, bringing Ravel's Bolero to Sydney's attention can be risky. It might remind him of another hobby horse.

[ahinton]

we look forward to Mr Sharp's views on this

If sharp practice is something that you are happy to espouse, I don't doubt that you might indeed look forward to these views; personally, such as I have read of them here reeks of unnatural flatulence which I take not to be accidental. That said, if Bolero is indeed taken to be "a crescendo for orchestra without music" (not a view to which I subscribe), might it not be wise for anyone desirous of "fixing" it to add some music to it first before considering the possibility of vocal enhancements?

Either way, I'm sure that M. Ravel himself would have had a sharp thing or two to say about this possible sacrilegious profanity! (to borrow an idea from Debussy)

[Bryn]

I've had to pack away my OED because I'm moving house, could anyone help me with this please?

Frankly, I find the inverecund posturing of this thread's opening salvo almost provides the necessary fillip to have recourse to the 'ignore list' option.

[ahinton]

Frankly I find the invericund posturing of this thread's opening salvo almost provides the necessary fillip to have recourse to the 'ignore list' option.

Could you possibly help out this particular ignoramus with a contextually specific definition of the word "almost"? That would very much help my understanding of your observation above. Many thanks in advance!

[Bryn]

Could you possibly help out this particular ignoramus with a contextually specific definition of the word "almost"? That would very much help my understanding of your observation above. Many thanks in advance!

Hmm, I must admit I may have set out on a lutulent path with the use of that particular word. It does open the door to ambiguous intepretation. I intended it in the sense of "very nearly".

[StephenO]

A Mahler synthesis in 10 minutes?

If you could get it down to 5 minutes it'd be an instant hit on Breakfast!

[Don Basilio]

Since to my mind the symphony is such an overrated genre since Mr Haydn invented it, I would personally be glad if the purely orchestral movements could be omitted, and so the work would come nearer to what is surely the highest forms of musical composition, namely the opera or church music.

In any case if you want to follow Mr Haydn's formula, which proved such a success in Hanover Square, you need four movements, fast, slow variations, dance with trio and finale. Anything else isn't a real symphony. If you really want to spend your time on such sort of stuff.

Mr Mahler's problem was that he did not have a princess to demand regular compositions of masses for her name day. Mr Haydn's salvation was that he did. And that he had experienced Handel oratorios.

[3rd Viennese School]

I had a similar idea for Shoshakovich Symphony no.7. Keep mvt 1, mvt 2, remove mvt 3 (already have an intermezzo, why follow it with a 20 minute slow mvt?).
Mvt 3 is a new finale, keeping the first section Allegro and then sticking something more interesting afterwards.

P.S. Mahler Symphony no.2. I can see where he’s coming from but keep mvt 3! It’s really good.
3VS

[Roehre]

A Mahler synthesis in 10 minutes?

As Louis Andriessen made a synthesis of ALL nine Beethoven symphonies lasting 11 minutes, a Mahler synthesis shouldn't be that difficult