Best conductors?

[pilamenon]

I couldn’t agree more with the choice for No 1, who’s almost EVERY recording, became a definitive performance of that work.

Having been working through Carlos Kleiber's complete recordings for DG, and whilst acknowledging how many plaudits he won from esteemed critics, his rather heavy Beethoven 5 and 7 with the VPO are certainly not versions I'd want to keep. But he seems to have had an especial affinity for opera, however, and I have very much enjoyed his Die Fledermaus and La Traviata.

As others have said, this seems another pretty pointless list, whether or not it has been compiled from the opinions of other conductors. No doubt it has been assembled with marketing in mind.

[Flosshilde]

I would not put any credence to views of any of those "conductors". How many of those names would you recognise? 3? 4 perhaps?

Well, I recognise Emmanuelle Hain, William Christie, Jane Glover, Rene Jacobs, Marc Minkowski, & Robin Ticciati - six in all. Just because they don't work predominantly in the field of mid to late 19th century symphonic music doesn't mean theay aren't conductors, & if you don't recognise them perhaps you need to widen your musical horizons a bit?

[Auferstehen2]

At the risk of becoming tiresome (and actually beginning to sound like Kleiber’s marketing man), the conductors who voted for him and who apparently should know better, were alphabetically

Harry Bicket, Artistic Director, The English Concert
Richard Bonynge, Former Music Director, Australian Opera
Martyn Brabbins, Principal Guest Conductor, Royal Flemish Philharmonic
Lionel Bringuier, Music Director, Orquesta Sinfónica de Castilla y León
Semyon Bychkov, Former Chief Conductor, WDR Sinfonieorchester Köln
Riccardo Chailly, Chief Conductor, Leizig Gewandhaus Orchestra
Francesco Corti, Music Director, Scottish opera
Sir Colin Davis, President, London Symphony Orchestra
Stéphanie Denève, Music Director, Royal Scottish National Orchestra
Gustavo Dudamel, Music Director, Simón Bolívar Youth Orchestra; Music Director, Los Angeles Philharmonic
Sir Mark Elder, Music Director, The Hallé
Richard Farnes, Music Director, Opera North
Edward Gardner, Music Director, English National Opera
Manfred Honeck, Music Director, Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra
Mariss Jansons, Principal Conductor, Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra
Kristjan Järvi, Music Director, Baltic Youth Philharmonic
James Judd, Music director emeritus, New Zealand Symphony Orchestra
Vladimir Jurowski, Principal Conductor, London Philharmonic Orchestra
Lothar Koenigs, Music Director, Welsh National Opera
Christian Lindberg, Chief Conductor, Arctic Philharmonic
Andrew Litton, Music Director, Bergen Philharmonic Orchestra
Suzanna Mälkki, Music Director, Ensemble intercontemporain
Juanjo Mena, Chief Conductor Designate, BBC Philharmonic
Andris Nelsons, Music Director, City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra
Sir Roger Norrington, Chief Conductor, Stuttgart Radio Symphony Orchestra
Jonathan Nott, Principal Conductor, Bamberg Philharmonic
Alondra de la Parra, Founder, Philharmonic Orchestra of the Americas
David Robertson, Principal Guest Conductor, BBC Symphony Orchestra
Donald Runnicles, Chief Conductor, BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra
Leif Segerstam, Chief Conductor emeritus, Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra
John Storgårds, Chief Conductor, Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra
Yuri Temirkanov, Principal Conductor, St Petersburg Philharmonic
Ilan Volkov, Principal Guest Conductor, BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra
Paul Watkins, Principal Guest Conductor, Ulster Orchestra
Xian Zhang, Music Director, La Verdi, Milan
Jaap van Zweden, Music Director, Dallas Symphony Orchestra

I find it difficult to disagree with such exponents of an art form that I have no idea on, even though, I freely admit, I have been critical of their own efforts in their own field as in for example, the “dull” Brahms thread.

Others prefer to listen to conductors who fly off at a moment’s notice to spend a few hours rehearsing and recording The Complete Everything, while true artists, such as Kleiber and Michelangeli, forego short-term financial rewards from many recordings to spend time agonising over a score before they are happy to commit their view for posterity.

Others still find Kleiber’s reading of the Beethoven 5 & 7 heavy – other than to admit to my speechlessness, I concede their right to state their opinion publicly.

And yet others prefer affection from colleagues and forgiving the odd fluff – where then would that leave Karajan, Fürtwangler and Toscanini?

The mistake that Dave2002 made in his original post was that of referring to “an article about the “best” conductors”. The BBC Magazine article made no such claim. The article was entitled, “The 20 Greatest Conductors of all time, as chosen by 100 of today’s leading maestros”. Presumably, others were approached, such as Muti and Rattle, but refused to contribute.

This is not a pointless list. It is a survey of what some conductors think were the greatest exponents of a particular musical art form. According to the Oxford English Dictionary,

greatest – impressively large, bigger than others, lasting a long time, important, exceptionally talented, powerful, good at something, very good, useful, being a good example of something.

I know nothing about a great deal of subjects. If I wanted to learn about something, would it not make sense for me to approach someone who practises in that field? I’m about to take my exams on Grade 6 Harmony and Grade 4 Practical Piano. Next year, my syllabus contains some Bach Preludes. I have never got on with Bach, hence my thread, “Why the glaring omission?” To learn how to play Bach properly, would it make sense for me to walk down the street and ask some complete stranger, or rely instead on my piano teacher, classically trained in Rome, to give me his input?

I think I’ll bow out of this thread now. Kleiber’s work certainly doesn’t need my input to survive!

Best wishes,

Mario

[Mandryka]

I own almost all of Kleiber's officially released output. If he wasn't a 'great' conductor, then the term is meaningless.

But what exactly does the term mean in this context? Nothing, I'd argue, unless it has been clearly defined: do we mean greatness in terms of influence? Ability? Originality? It all needs clarification....

If pushed to name an objective, all-round greatest, I'd probably opt for Furtwangler, who seems to be more generally highly regarded (not least by other conductors) than any other name. To my knowledge, Furtwangler succeeded in pretty much any repertoire he turned his baton to (his - few - recordings of French and Russian music are stunning, though they may not be what we might call idiomatic), not just the Austro-German one that was his natural patch.

Other condcutors were more hit and miss - but, in a way, their eccentricities and occasional misfires could be just as interesting as their triumphs - eg, Klemperer in Tchaikovsky.

[vinteuil]

I would not put any credence to views of any of those "conductors". How many of those names would you recognise? 3? 4 perhaps?

well... for me, at least ... the following are certainly well-known and highly respected - Emmanuelle Haïm, Peter Phillips, Rumon Gamba, William Christie, Jane Glover, Paul Goodwin, René Jacobs, Marc Minkowski, Yannick Nézet-Séguin, and Robin Ticciati. I make that ten ...

But like others, I think this a pretty footling exercise.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

well... for me, at least ... the following are certainly well-known and highly respected - Emmanuelle Haïm, Peter Phillips, Rumon Gamba, William Christie, Jane Glover

Vinteiul, I like it.

I think I’ll bow out of this thread now. Kleiber’s work certainly doesn’t need my input to survive!

I don't think anyone really doubts his greatness. It's the pointless Weakest Link/Big Brother/X-Factor/Britain's Got Talent/Gramophone magazine mentality reaching the BBC Music Magazine that is the issue.

[Chris Newman]

Whilst agreeing that Carlos Kleiber was a genius and magical conductor I feel that given his miniscule repertoire this makes him an odd choice for Number One. On the other hand I would put at least five of the conductors who voted for him far above several of the others listed in that top ten

[pilamenon]

I know nothing about a great deal of subjects. If I wanted to learn about something, would it not make sense for me to approach someone who practises in that field? I’m about to take my exams on Grade 6 Harmony and Grade 4 Practical Piano. Next year, my syllabus contains some Bach Preludes. I have never got on with Bach, hence my thread, “Why the glaring omission?” To learn how to play Bach properly, would it make sense for me to walk down the street and ask some complete stranger, or rely instead on my piano teacher, classically trained in Rome, to give me his input?

I don't think this analogy helps us in the current context. If I wished to learn about the art of conducting, then I might well be advised to talk to and learn from Carlos Kleiber. But in terms of the music I choose to listen to, even though I am not a conductor or a particularly accomplished musician, I rely on my own judgment. My assessment of Kleiber's Beethoven leaves you "speechless", but I tend to prefer Beethoven with a slightly lighter tread and faster speeds. Doesn't mean it isn't a great reading for others. That's why this kind of "greatest" list isn't very helpful except perhaps to those listeners who might be starting out and are unsure of what to go for.

I'd also like to add my praise for Beecham, a conductor of whom I had shamefully formed an opinion without any substantial evidence. His recently reissued Haydn symphonies (Beecham - 'The Classical Tradition') are proving an absolute treat to listen to. Certainly very competitive versions, superbly played and surprisingly (to me) light on their feet.

[Auferstehen2]

In my lengthy Message 18, I said that I shan’t contribute any further to this thread, if only because I seemed to be in a minority. Pilamenon’s post,

I don't think this analogy helps us in the current context. If I wished to learn about the art of conducting, then I might well be advised to talk to and learn from Carlos Kleiber. But in terms of the music I choose to listen to, even though I am not a conductor or a particularly accomplished musician, I rely on my own judgment. My assessment of Kleiber's Beethoven leaves you "speechless", but I tend to prefer Beethoven with a slightly lighter tread and faster speeds. Doesn't mean it isn't a great reading for others. That's why this kind of "greatest" list isn't very helpful except perhaps to those listeners who might be starting out and are unsure of what to go for.

I'd also like to add my praise for Beecham, a conductor of whom I had shamefully formed an opinion without any substantial evidence. His recently reissued Haydn symphonies (Beecham - 'The Classical Tradition') are proving an absolute treat to listen to. Certainly very competitive versions, superbly played and surprisingly (to me) light on their feet.

deserves an answer.

Pilamenon, I am genuinely sorry if I offended you and you found my reply insulting – this was NEVER my intention. As I said, rather unsuccessfully it seems, I didn’t want to try to force my opinion on anyone – I don’t think I have that right. The reason however, why your observation left me speechless was nothing to do with your ability to pass judgement on good music-making, but simply that I thought it an unusual comment considering the universal praise that particular LP/CD received since its inception, continually garnering top recommendations for being a revolutionary reading of these overworked warhorses.

I realize now I should have kept my mouth shut. My apologies,



Mario

[pilamenon]

The reason however, why your observation left me speechless was nothing to do with your ability to pass judgement on good music-making, but simply that I thought it an unusual comment considering the universal praise that particular LP/CD received since its inception, continually garnering top recommendations for being a revolutionary reading of these overworked warhorses.

True, Mario, part of the (my) problem was that I knew how highly-regarded CK's 5, in particular, is, and sat down expecting to be blown away. Anyway, it's my loss.

I wonder if many of these conductors who voted for him wished they could afford to be as selective as Kleiber was about what and when he recorded.

[Dave2002]

I’m saddened to disagree with you so emphatically Dave2002.

Best wishes,

Mario

Mario

I'm glad you like Kleiber - I never said I didn't. Having said that I can only think of a few recordings by him which I might consider as great or even enjoyable, while I own many recordings by conductors such as Bruno Walter, Otto Klemperer and a few by Furtwangler. For me these conductors did more, and have had a much greater impact on my life than Carlos Kleiber. Indeed if I were to think of Kleiber, I might prefer to think of Erich Kleiber, who like his son also did a very good Beethoven 5, and also if I recall correctly, Schubert 9.

Having said that, it appears that I'm not alone in my views. Here is another comment - http://www.blogiversity.org/blogs/th...time-quot.aspx

There were of course other significant conductors, such as Mitropoulos, and also Sergiu Celibidache, who similarly seemed to have achieved cult status? Josef Krips was also very good in some repertoire - I could go on and on, and I would keep coming back to the view that Carlos Kleiber might have been very good but in a very narrow repertoire. His behaviour seems to have engendered a myth that he was somehow better than many of the other conductors who did/do not demand highly priced cars for payment for their concerts.

[Alison]

I like Dave's point about 'impact on life'. A lot of the 'greatest' and 'best' discussions we have would be better accommodated under this heading.

[Petrushka]

I like Dave's point about 'impact on life'. A lot of the 'greatest' and 'best' discussions we have would be better accommodated under this heading.

Taking my cue from this, the conductors who have had, and still have, a major impact on my life either through concerts or recordings (or both) are:

Bernard Haitink
Klaus Tennstedt
Claudio Abbado
Sir Georg Solti
Herbert von Karajan
Leonard Bernstein
Sir Simon Rattle
Gunter Wand
Rudolf Kempe
Karl Bohm
Willi Boskovsky

A few departures from a convential 'best of' list, I'd agree, but each and every one of them run through my life like a thread. I have seen them all, some of them many times, in the past 40 odd years and met most of them too. Always regret never seeing Carlos Kleiber and Sir Adrian Boult when I had the chance but such is life.

[umslopogaas]

Ah, thanks Petrushka (post 28), I'm glad someone has finally listed my favourite conductor, Sir Georg Solti. Not to all tastes, I guess, people sometimes complain that he is too hard-driven and that he concentrates too much on detail and misses the big structures, but I like his style, and he got brilliant recordings from Decca. Operas by Wagner and Richard Strauss are central of course, but he also made occasional forays into Mozart (Magic Flute) and Verdi (Falstaff, Requiem). His recordings of Bartok (Concerto for Orchestra, Dance Suite) introduced me to that composer, as did his Mahler symphonies. Not so sure about his Beethoven, I think I prefer Klemperer, but if I had to limit myself to one conductor, it would have to be Solti.

[Chris Newman]

These are the ten conductors, in alphabetical order, who have most influenced my tastes :

Claudio Abbado
Pierre Boulez
Sir Adrian Boult
Sir Colin Davis
Carlo Maria Giulini
Bernard Haitink
Jascha Horenstein
Sir Charles Mackerras
Hans Schmitt-Isserstedt
Constantin Silvestri

There are others coming up who are stepping into their shoes. Whilst I fear for the future of orchestras and opera companies in this materialistic world I have no fear for conductors. Russia and Finland turn out maestros in the manner of an industry. Britain, France and the USA does not do too badly either.