Best conductors?

[Dave2002]

A few months ago the BBC Mag had an article about the "best" conductors. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned here so far. Top came Carlos Kleiber - which I found very surprising, yet some very esteemed conductors didn't even make the top 20.

I'm not suggesting that Carlos Kleiber wasn't very good, but the idea that a conductor who hardly had a very wide repertoire, and gave very few performances and also only made only a few recordings could be considered better than many others who did have wider repertoires, gave many more performances and had many more recordings strikes me as somewhat bizarre. OK - if it's a case of quality over quantity, then I'd say that quality should win, but many others provided or continue to provide quality as well as quantity.

[Auferstehen2]

Dave2002,

I’ve almost always found your contributions helpful, instructive, lucid and informative.

Unless therefore you have couched your post to engender some feedback, I’m surprised by you. Quality over quantity is of paramount importance to me and I would much rather own one single definitive recording of a work, than own yet another feeble attempt to please the masses (witness the discussion currently on whether Brahms is a dull composer).

The BBC magazine you refer to (which obviously reaches us here much later) is the Vol 19 No 7 edition. The top 10 conductors were, in reverse order,

10 Carlo Maria Guilini
09 Pierre Boulez
08 Arturo Toscanini
07 Wilhelm Fürtwangler
06 Sir Simon Rattle
05 Nikolaus Harnoncourt
04 Herbert von Karajan
03 Claudio Abbado
02 Leonard Bernstein
01 Carlos Kleiber

I couldn’t agree more with the choice for No 1, who’s almost EVERY recording, became a definitive performance of that work. I would like to place both Fürtwangler and Toscanini much higher, and others not in the top 10 at all, but as I’ve said elsewhere, I’d prefer to keep my negative comments to myself, as I know that there are some fanatical supporters of certain conductors here.

Please remember also, that this wasn’t some random survey that was carried out, but a collection of the opinions of a current 100 top conductors. Maybe they know what it takes to waive that stick around and bring out those miraculous sounds? The conductors who rated Kleiber as their number one were, alphabetically

Richard Bonynge, Lionel Bringuier, Semyon Bychkov, Riccardo Chailly, Gustavo Dudamel, Sir Mark Elder, Richard Farnes, Edward Gardner, Manfred Honeck, Mariss Jansons, Lothar Koenigs, Christian Lindberg, Susanna Mälkki, Andris Nelsons, Jonathan Nott, Alondra de la Parra, Donald Runnicles, Leif Segerstam, John Storgårds and Xian Zhang.

Not all first rate, top class conductors I grant you, but still not a bad testament to the work of a great man (which in fairness you recognise), no matter how paltry his output.

I’m saddened to disagree with you so emphatically Dave2002.

Best wishes,

Mario

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It's an interesting list, but surprising. Carlos Kleiber's father, Erich, was every bit the equal of his son as a conductor, but with a much larger repertoire.

I seem to recall a review of present day conductors (I think in the same magazine) that gave Rattle and Barenboim the top 2 spots, finally coming down in favour of the latter (though my memory may be playing tricks).

Of "Urtext" conductors, I would have expected Toscanini to be there, but Harnoncourt above John Eliot Gardiner?

Also, I'm very surprised that Bernstein and Abbado are number 2 & 3 with Furtwangler only at number 7 - surely a serious contender for the top spot?

[salymap]

And Simon Rattle presumably the best British conductor ever. I just don't believe it. Remember they are from the past and the present.

If limited repertoire is no drawback, what about the Beecham magic?

[Ventilhorn]

It's an interesting list, but surprising. Carlos Kleiber's father, Erich, was every bit the equal of his son as a conductor, but with a much larger repertoire.

Also, I'm very surprised that Bernstein and Abbado are number 2 & 3 with Furtwangler only at number 7 - surely a serious contender for the top spot?

Eine Alpensinfonie:
I agree with your comment about Erich Kleiber, although Carlos' recording of Brahms 4th with the VPO is, for me, the definitive interpretation of that great work.

Surprising to me that Jascha Horenstein and Bruno Walter were not mentioned. I would have rated them as Numbers 1 & 2 from my own playing experience. Beecham was, to me, a superb opera conductor and a champion of lesser known composers; but he was too self indulgent and I would only rate him among the top British conductors - Mackerras (Oz actually), Barbirolli, Boult. (It is one of my great regrets that I never played for Barbirolli)

A conductor's repertoire is very important here. Haitinck could shine with almost any music. I doubt if anyone would have been over the moon listening to Tommy conducting Brahms or Beethoven; but French Music - WOW!

VH

[mercia]

sorry but what does "best" mean in this context?

[Auferstehen2]

In case you’re interested, and a copy of the April BBC Magazine is not at hand, the conductors who placed Rattle as their

No 1 were Emmanuelle Haïm and Peter Phillips, those who placed him as their
No 2 were Richard Farnes, Rumon Gamba and Alondra de la Parra, and those who placed him as their
No 3 were William Christie, Jane Glover, Paul Goodwin, René Jacobs, Marc Minkowski, Yannick Nézet-Séguin and Robin Ticciati.

So, only twelve out of “the top 100 conductors alive today” (the BBC’s words, not mine) place him in the top three conductors.

I can, if you wish, for those who are not as yet bored to death by my statistical lists, give further evidence of Kleiber’s apparent annihilation of all opposition by listing those conductors who placed him second and third.

Mario

[Ventilhorn]

In case you’re interested, and a copy of the April BBC Magazine is not at hand, the conductors who placed Rattle as their

No 1 were Emmanuelle Haïm and Peter Phillips, those who placed him as their
No 2 were Richard Farnes, Rumon Gamba and Alondra de la Parra, and those who placed him as their
[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]No 3 were William Christie, Jane Glover, Paul Goodwin, René Jacobs, Marc Minkowski, Yannick Nézet-Séguin and [FONT=Arial]Robin Ticciati.

[SIZE=2][FONT=Arial]So, only twelve out of “the top 100 conductors alive today” (the BBC[FONT=Arial]’s words, not mine) place him in the top three conductors

I would not put any credence to views of any of those "conductors". How many of those names would you recognise? 3? 4 perhaps?

[Auferstehen2]

I would not put any credence to views of any of those "conductors". How many of those names would you recognise? 3? 4 perhaps?

Ventilhorn, whether you are a professional musician or not, sorry, don’t agree.

I think they know a little more about the art of conducting than I do. As such, yes I do give some credence to their point of view, in fact, I suspect, an awful lot more than they would of mine!

Mario

[Auferstehen2]

And Simon Rattle presumably the best British conductor ever. I just don't believe it. Remember they are from the past and the present.

If limited repertoire is no drawback, what about the Beecham magic?

Just to let you know Salymap that Sir Thomas Beecham received the following votes. He was nominated for the

No 1 spot by David Lloyd-Jones
No 2 spot by Peter Phillips
No 3 spot by Edward Gardner

I wonder sometimes whether conductors are more highly regarded in their own country than they are abroad, and why therefore one really has to be a top flight conductor to attract international acclaim? I would have thought responses on this thread would have spit venom by now at the exclusion of for example, Sir Colin Davis?

Mario

[DoctorT]

This is one of those meaningless lists that magazines publish. By what criteria can one judge the 'best' conductor? 'Favourite', yes, but not 'best.' And it of course only refers to those in the era of recorded music. Mahler, anyone, or Mendelssohn? It's a bit like those polls of sports fans whose memories only go back about 10 years.

[Ferretfancy]

salymap,

I'm glad to see Beecham mentioned, but "limited repertoire" ? Well, there was Strauss ( pioneering performances of Salome & Elektra ) Sibelius, Mozart, Schubert,, Berlioz, Wagner, Handel, Grieg, Delius and many others. Certainly there fewer works featured in his later career, but overall his range was astonishing.

As for Carlos Kleiber, he was certainly very fine indeed, but for me the longer term test concerns lasting impact, and not just on musicians. Surely the greatest conductors are remembered with affection for their human qualities, failings even, and in that respect Beecham and Barbirolli and Pierre Monteux would rank very high on my list.

[amateur51]

This is one of those meaningless lists that magazines publish. By what criteria can one judge the 'best' conductor? 'Favourite', yes, but not 'best.' And it of course only refers to those in the era of recorded music. Mahler, anyone, or Mendelssohn? It's a bit like those polls of sports fans whose memories only go back about 10 years.

Bravo DoctorT!

I've just deleted a very similar post in preparation

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

True. In the late 90s, Kate Winslet was polled as the most beautiful woman ever; "Hey Jude" was the best tune ever written; etc.

[salymap]

Ferret. I tried a link to your earlier post but it wouldn't work!

Beecham also gave revivals of Balfe 'The Bohemian Girl' and, I believe, Flotow 'Martha'. At the library we had the job of writing his new words into old vocal scores. He loved those old Victorian works it seems.
I agree about the affection and memories, which outlive any minor blemishes in performance.