New Year's Day Concert 2017 VPO/Dudamel

[Tetrachord]

I think you are misunderstanding the difference between playing an instrument and imagining and directing an ensemble.
Sure, there are insights to be gained by playing a superior instrument like the French Horn BUT that is a completely different thing to understanding how an ensemble works and how instrumental voicings combine etc

To suggest that Berg wasn't a "very good musician" is ridiculous, haven't you heard the music he wrote ?

Some of the worst conductors are ex violinists

You are actually arguing FOR my original comments!!

I know all about Berg as I've read widely about the composer and know some (only some) of his works. In fact, I read an anthology of essays on Berg (in English) when I was living in Vienna and looking for English language books to read. Look back at some of the other comments on this thread.

[ahinton]

To suggest that Berg wasn't a "very good musician" is ridiculous

As is the context in which this statement was made, namely "some composers, like Berg, weren't very good musicians"; why some people seek to draw a non-existent distinction between "composers" and "musicians" is beyond me - as if one could be a composer without necessarily being a musician, "very good" or otherwise! What is clearly mean instead of "musician" is "performer - singer and/or instrumentalist".

[ahinton]

I know all about Berg as I've read widely about the composer and know some (only some) of his works.

That is a self-contradicting statement, surely? How can you know "all about Berg" (a claim that I suspect even most seasoned Berg scholars would be wary of making) if you know "(only some) of his works"?

[Tetrachord]

That is a self-contradicting statement, surely? How can you know "all about Berg" (a claim that I suspect even most seasoned Berg scholars would be wary of making) if you know "(only some) of his works"?

OK; let's go through it again and after that I'm done. I said; "I know all about Berg". I didn't say, "I know all about Berg's music". There's a difference between a human being and the music he composes.

Good night from Sydney.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

As is the context in which this statement was made, namely "some composers, like Berg, weren't very good musicians"; why some people seek to draw a non-existent distinction between "composers" and "musicians" is beyond me - as if one could be a composer without necessarily being a musician, "very good" or otherwise! What is clearly mean instead of "musician" is "performer - singer and/or instrumentalist".

At the risk of misinterpreting our diminished seventh poster yet again, I suspect that this confusion between being an instrumental performer and being a Musician might lie behind the astonishment she feels that Kleiber could read a score without being able to play an instrument very well - something that isn't really unusual. The idea behind it, perhaps, being that conductors normally "learn" scores at a piano (just as composers write Music at one)? It's a common misunderstanding/preconception - even proficient pianists who conduct learn the score from the score, not a piano reduction: reading the parts, putting them together, imagining the orchestral sounds from the printed scores. And Kleiber would have been surrounded by the things in his childhood before he even started his piano lessons.

But, as I say, I may have misunderstood the point, as it seems the phrasing of it (ironically) is far from Krystal clear. And anyone who can claim that they know "all" about a composer without knowing much of their work has missed the point entirely.

[ahinton]

At the risk of misinterpreting our diminished seventh poster yet again, I suspect that this confusion between being an instrumental performer and being a Musician might lie behind the astonishment she feels that Kleiber could read a score without being able to play an instrument very well - something that isn't really unusual. The idea behind it, perhaps, being that conductors normally "learn" scores at a piano (just as composers write Music at one)? It's a common misunderstanding/preconception - even proficient pianists who conduct learn the score from the score, not a piano reduction: reading the parts, putting them together, imagining the orchestral sounds from the printed scores. And Kleiber would have been surrounded by the things in his childhood before he even started his piano lessons.

But, as I say, I may have misunderstood the point, as it seems the phrasing of it (ironically) is far from Krystal clear. And anyone who can claim that they know "all" about a composer without knowing much of their work has missed the point entirely.

Indeed, on all counts, especially the last!

And OK, composers don't all write at the piano (there's much comment on this, not least from composers themselves). I for one not only don't write at the piano but I can't write at the piano! - which is not, of course, to suggest that it's better to write away from the instrument (unless one happens not to have one to hand at any particular time).

[Barbirollians]

Richard Morrison in The Times has slagged off Dudamel . It has all the hallmarks of a review written before he had heard it which of course could not possibly be the case but it does seem that preconceptions have triumphed over evidence . As so often with this reviewer there is a brief dismissal with no analysis as in his absurd conclusion that Barbirolli's 1960s Elgar 2 was staid and stolid .

Strange that it is at odds with just about all of this thread .

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Strange that it is at odds with just about all of this thread .

Well, given that it is Morrison we're talking about, I think that the opinion of the Forum is confirmed rather than contradicted by the fact that he wasn't impressed.

[Richard Barrett]

I suspect that this confusion between being an instrumental performer and being a Musician might lie behind the astonishment she feels that Kleiber could read a score without being able to play an instrument very well - something that isn't really unusual. The idea behind it, perhaps, being that conductors normally "learn" scores at a piano (just as composers write Music at one)? It's a common misunderstanding/preconception

Imagine how a conductor, however proficient as a pianist, is going to learn a new orchestral score which can't plausibly be played at all on the piano, for example because of its complexity and/or microtones and/or heavy use of unpitched percussion and/or unsynchronised parts, without being able to hear it inwardly from looking at the score. Or imagine how a composer could write such a thing. I don't have to imagine that because I finished one yesterday. (And I don't even own a piano!)

[ahinton]

Imagine how a conductor, however proficient as a pianist, is going to learn a new orchestral score which can't plausibly be played at all on the piano, for example because of its complexity and/or microtones and/or heavy use of unpitched percussion and/or unsynchronised parts, without being able to hear it inwardly from looking at the score. Or imagine how a composer could write such a thing. I don't have to imagine that because I finished one yesterday. (And I don't even own a piano!)

Quite - (but you ought to get a piano, though!)...

From what piece is the above an extract, if I might ask?

[Alison]

Well, given that it is Morrison we're talking about, I think that the opinion of the Forum is confirmed rather than contradicted by the fact that he wasn't impressed.

Quite so. I am not easily pleased at the NYD concert but thought the whole thing was virtually beyond criticism.

[ahinton]

[deleted: duplicate]

[Richard Barrett]

a review written before he had heard it which of course could not possibly be the case

[Prommer]

Rather highlighted by this footage, which I'd never seen before, of CK miming self-destruction and general world-weariness when something on the stage during Rosenkavalier at the Wiener Staatsoper in 1994 didn't match up to the ideal performance in his head:

https://www.facebook.com/Andres.Soto.Composer/videos/10150820460319949/

I love the resigned chat with the first violins!

Totally hilarious. Poor singer though! (Who was the offender??)

Perhaps we need a Kleiber thread...! He keeps popping up...

[Prommer]

Do you seriously suggest they'd be silly enough to re-iterate something which was already known. They were trying to define the unique genius of Carlos Kleiber.

Yes, some composers, like Berg, weren't very good musicians

Well, Carlos was Berg's son... (Retires to potting shed)