New Year's Day Concert 2017 VPO/Dudamel

[pastoralguy]

One could also ask "why specifically opera?" - couldn't there be a link to ballet too? I do know conductors who refuse to go anywhere near ballet, on the grounds that it's too rigid, and don't want to be subservient to dance. Which makes me wonder if many of the really significant conductors of the past ever conducted ballet - Walter, Klemperer, Toscanini, Giulini etc.

I don't think all ballet has to be like that, and some performances could probably benefit from conductors with a bit of imagination, but what do I know?
Obviously there might have to be compromises, but is that impossibly bad?

That's a very good question, Dave! To the best of my knowledge, no conductors have ever really risen through the ranks by conducting ballet. Whenever I've played ballet I've always found the music to be subservient to the stage in away that opera isn't.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

One could also ask "why specifically opera?" - couldn't there be a link to ballet too? I do know conductors who refuse to go anywhere near ballet, on the grounds that it's too rigid, and don't want to be subservient to dance. Which makes me wonder if many of the really significant conductors of the past ever conducted ballet - Walter, Klemperer, Toscanini, Giulini etc.

I don't think all ballet has to be like that, and some performances could probably benefit from conductors with a bit of imagination, but what do I know?
Obviously there might have to be compromises, but is that impossibly bad?

With my very limited experience of conducting in the pit, the players acquired great listening skills to keep in step with the whims of singers. With ballet, it's the other way round - the director asks for a tempo for the dancers and the conductor obliges to follow tat instruction. There's no other extra demand on the players or conductor.

[Dave2002]

re msg 25 Eine A.

Are you sure you didn't take along a few tons of Rinso Blue to put in the water?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Well, several "really significant conductors of the past" have happily included ballet Music in their concerts and recordings; it's not so much they who need "a bit of imagination" than some choreographers and dancers of Classical Ballet, who expect/demand that every performance has to have exactly the same tempo so that the moves that they have learnt can be reproduced exactly the same night after night after matinee. Some ballet companies have dispensed with an orchestra entirely, and dance to recordings. Unlike (some) opera singers, who seem to be better prepared to create nuances responding to the spirit of the moment (which any decently competent conductor will instantaneously respond to) some dancers want to know exactly what to do and to do exactly this (and only exactly this) every night and can't cope/respond quickly to alterations. That's a very depressing prospect for most Musicians - and, if you're a much sought-after conductor who can pick and choose what engagements to accept, you're not going to opt for it.

[Dave2002]

fhg

I agree that they have conducted the music, but that's not the same as suggesting that they actually did so for any ballet performances. I recently commented on some superb Tchaikovsky waltes conducted by Masur, but maybe versions which work really well in a concert hall won't work if dancers are involved.

Your added comments about ballet being very rigid does seem to fit in with what I've heard, but why does it have to be so? Opera is very much more flexible - indeed probably more so than "concert" music.

[Prommer]

I fancy Dudamel has been watching tapes of Kleiber conducting-dancing his way through this concert....

Most obvious comparison in this Kleiber rehearsal of Tausend une eine nacht, which the Dude has just conducted...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap7r-bUvbQk

[pastoralguy]

The most off putting thing about playing ballet is the clumping from the stage which never seems to be in time with the music! There's always a lot of dust around too!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I agree that they have conducted the music, but that's not the same as suggesting that they actually did so for any ballet performances. I recently commented on some superb Tchaikovsky waltes conducted by Masur, but maybe versions which work really well in a concert hall won't work if dancers are involved.

Your added comments about ballet being very rigid does seem to fit in with what I've heard, but why does it have to be so? Opera is very much more flexible - indeed probably more so than "concert" music.

- and it does depend on the choreographer; it may well be that old-school Classical Ballet choreographers are losing prominence to younger and more adventurous people who are working with their corps de ballet as individuals, expressing the dramatic moment rather than accurately reproducing a set of prepared moves. (Not that all the "old-school" choreographers were unimaginative, of course - but some of them did rather give the impression that "the ballet" is their choreography; everything else is just cosmetic - scenery, costume, music ... So, no wonder Musicians avoided working with them if they could get a better gig!)


Happy New Year, by the way, Dave - I forgot to say in my last post.

[pastoralguy]

Of course, the exception to the rule was Sir Thomas Beecham conducting for the Ballet Russe. Obviously, Sir Thomas wasn't going to take orders from ANYONE and he choose tempi that suited HIM. After a particularly 'rousing' Russian dance he beamed at the players and said 'well, that made the little buggers hop!'

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

And, to be fair to the members of the corps de ballet - they are a unit performing in consort, where individual deviation from a set pattern of movements is going to spoil a visual line that the audience is meant to see. (And, unlike the members of the Second Violins of an orchestra, who might be in a comparible position, the dancers often can't see the conductor, so wouldn't easily be able to follow any "mouldings" of tempo: they have to be able to hear a pulse - to be able to hear the beat upon which that they know when to raise or lower which limb. Modern CCTV screens discretely placed can help in overcoming this problem.)

[Radames]

This was a great concert, I think. Dudamel was refreshing and modest, his conducting inspiring, his interaction with the audience relaxed and humorous. Musically it was ok. Next year Muti. Oh dear ...!!

[Nick Armstrong]

Wonderful playing, agreed. The Dude is bringing some youthful vigour to this, for which many thanks, fan as I was of Pretre, who had bottled a more vintage fizz...

[pastoralguy]

This was a great concert, I think. Dudamel was refreshing and modest, his conducting inspiring, his interaction with the audience relaxed and humorous. Musically it was ok. Next year Muti. Oh dear ...!!

We saw him conduct Beethoven and Stravinsky with Die Berliner Philharmoniker a couple of years ago ago were really impressed. The players obviously liked him so I don't see why his interaction with the Vienna Philhonic would yield any lesser results.

[hmvman]

I enjoyed this concert very much. I thought Dudamel looked slightly nervous at the start but by the second half had relaxed into it and was clearly enjoying himself. Nice programme of music too: good to hear the Waldteufel.

Happy New Year all!