New Year's Day Concert 2017 VPO/Dudamel

[Alison]

Who is Charles Hazelwood? Not the Mozart conductor, by any chance!!??

Heresy alert: much of Mozart's music bores me far more than anything at the Wiener Philharmoniker Neujahrskonzert!! (I prefer Haydn.)

He's majoring on the music to Thunderbirds for 2017

[Tetrachord]

I often wish I were a better pianist or good enough to conduct the London Philharmonic but at least I was given the gift of being able to listen to and enjoy music without worrying about all the peripheral issues raised in this thread .

Fwiw this was the best conducted and played NYD concert since I started following them in 2004.

You know there are two famous conductors that I know of who were not musicians of any skill on an instrument; Sir Thomas Beecham, and Carlos Kleiber - the latter a bog-standard pianist who didn't start serious musical training until he was 20. His colleagues said you always knew when Carlos was playing the piano because there were wrong notes all over the place. We all know that notwithstanding that lack of skill both men climbed to the top of the profession. In Kleiber's case, and according to what I've gleaned through research, this lack of virtuosity or significant skill on an instrument was a cause of at least some of his insecurity. When the conductor Charles Barber wrote to Kleiber about mentorship the reply from Kleiber was, "you would know more than I do; my degree is not in music but in chemistry". In fact, Kleiber never completed any formal education apart from 1 year of undergrad chemistry in Zurich. Reading between the lines in a lot of the disagreements and prima donna behaviour of Kleiber, I believe that this fact lies at the heart of much of it, deep down. There are famous comments from other great musicians like Richter who said (and I'm paraphrasing here), "so much talent and such insecurity; he was a titan".

What made Kleiber a conducting genius and great musician was his awesome musical intelligence and the fact that he could hear the music from the page already in his head when he went to conduct it.

[Richard Barrett]

the fact that he could hear the music from the page already in his head when he went to conduct it.

Not wishing to detract from Kleiber, this is kind of a necessary qualification for a conductor (or instrumentalist or composer)!

[Tetrachord]

Not wishing to detract from Kleiber, this is kind of a necessary qualification for a conductor (or instrumentalist or composer)!

It was an observation repeated by fellow conductors and musicians about Kleiber!! Not one of my own. And the comment is made in the context of Kleiber not being proficient on an instrument himself. Peter Jonas has said this only demonstrates that a gifted musician can 'imagine' the music without having to actually play an instrument. I was always skeptical about this - until Kleiber arrived!!

[MrGongGong]

It was an observation repeated by fellow conductors and musicians about Kleiber!! Not one of my own. And the comment is made in the context of Kleiber not being proficient on an instrument himself. Peter Jonas has said this only demonstrates that a gifted musician can 'imagine' the music without having to actually play an instrument. I was always skeptical about this - until Kleiber arrived!!

As Richard said this isn't at all extraordinary (which doesn't detract from his ability).
I'm sure there are many folks here who can "read" a score in this way or imagine music without the sound being in their ears.

This is sometimes referred to as

Phonomnesis

This effect refers to a sound that is imagined but not actually heard. Phonomnesis is a mental activity that involves internal listening.

Augoyard & Torgue : Sonic Experience, a guide to everyday sounds

[jonfan]

A sympathetic soul!! I'm sorry I misunderstood.

I welcome the Asian love of serious music because there are exponentially growing audiences all over Asia and this provides a promise for many of us that our dearly loved art form is destined to survive long in perpetuity. That's something I've worried about in past decades. Yes, "authenticity" and "high standards" are part of the mix - but it's just phenomenal anyway. What's NOT to love??

The word 'serious' is wrong here as it gives the impression that Asian communities do not value the music and traditions of their own cultures; 'western classical' is what is meant I suppose. A worrying aspect with the growth of classical music lovers and performers in the east is the detrimental effects of taking equal temperament and the 12tone scale as the norm. Howard Goodall did an excellent TV programme some years ago outlining the threat to very ancient cultures from Western musical influences however benignly meant.

[Richard Barrett]

a gifted musician can 'imagine' the music without having to actually play an instrument.

As I said, this is necessary for conductors and composers. (Berlioz and Berg were indifferent instrumentalists too.) After all, nobody can play all the instruments. An orchestral score is a medium of communication between (initially) composer and conductor, and if this communication doesn't work in terms of giving an aural image to the conductor, someone isn't doing their job properly! There's no great mystery about it.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Howard Goodall did an excellent TV programme some years ago outlining the threat to very ancient cultures from Western musical influences however benignly meant.

- and to the pre-Equal Temperate Musics of the Western traditions themselves, too.

[Richard Barrett]

the threat to very ancient cultures from Western musical influences however benignly meant.

In general I don't think it's at all benign, however, aside from the intrepid efforts of many individuals to preserve and document threatened musical traditions. The commercialisation of "World Music" in the west produces a situation where traditional musicians in many parts of the world have an opportunity to extract themselves from poverty by producing music which is sanitised for western commercial sensibilities. And who can blame them? but it's yet another example of how commercial priorities serve to homogenise culture, both at home and abroad.

[Tetrachord]

As I said, this is necessary for conductors and composers. (Berlioz and Berg were indifferent instrumentalists too.) After all, nobody can play all the instruments. An orchestral score is a medium of communication between (initially) composer and conductor, and if this communication doesn't work in terms of giving an aural image to the conductor, someone isn't doing their job properly! There's no great mystery about it.

I only wish Peter Jonas, Manfred Honeck and several musicians who worked in the orchestras conducted by Kleiber and who were also personal friends actually knew what you know! This includes Maurizio Pollini.

[Tetrachord]

The word 'serious' is wrong here as it gives the impression that Asian communities do not value the music and traditions of their own cultures; 'western classical' is what is meant I suppose. A worrying aspect with the growth of classical music lovers and performers in the east is the detrimental effects of taking equal temperament and the 12tone scale as the norm. Howard Goodall did an excellent TV programme some years ago outlining the threat to very ancient cultures from Western musical influences however benignly meant.

No; that's not what I meant at all about 'serious music'. It's another way of saying 'art music'. Again, a term which is sure to offend somebody or other. Sigh.

[Richard Barrett]

I only wish Peter Jonas, Manfred Honeck and several musicians who worked in the orchestras conducted by Kleiber and who were also personal friends actually knew what you know! This includes Maurizio Pollini.

It's common knowledge among musicians.

[Nick Armstrong]

Not wishing to detract from Kleiber, this is kind of a necessary qualification for a conductor (or instrumentalist or composer)!

Rather highlighted by this footage, which I'd never seen before, of CK miming self-destruction and general world-weariness when something on the stage during Rosenkavalier at the Wiener Staatsoper in 1994 didn't match up to the ideal performance in his head:

https://www.facebook.com/Andres.Soto.Composer/videos/10150820460319949/

I love the resigned chat with the first violins!

[Tetrachord]

It's common knowledge among musicians.

You're missing the point: that Kleiber DID NOT play an instrument very well himself and regardless of that he had a PROFOUND knowledge of how each instrument worked, each group of instruments and how these should sound, could sound and what each was capable of. He was known for his supreme command of line and cantabile. Most of that was theoretical because he hadn't actually played like that himself, unlike the vast majority of conductors. And he'd certainly NEVER played in any orchestra. These comments and observations came out of the mouths of some of the most important people in the music world. Do you seriously suggest they'd be silly enough to re-iterate something which was already known. They were trying to define the unique genius of Carlos Kleiber.

Yes, some composers, like Berg, weren't very good musicians; some modern composers have been self-taught and have little musical training. I'm not sure what your point is here since all of their works require INTERPRETATION. (In any case Berg made 3 attempts at the Matura before finally matriculating!!)

[MrGongGong]

You're missing the point: that Kleiber DID NOT play an instrument very well himself and regardless of that he had a PROFOUND knowledge of how each instrument worked, each group of instruments and how these should sound, could sound and what each was capable of. He was known for his supreme command of line and cantabile. Most of that was theoretical because he hadn't actually played like that himself, unlike the vast majority of conductors. And he'd certainly NEVER played in any orchestra. These comments and observations came out of the mouths of some of the most important people in the music world. Do you seriously suggest they'd be silly enough to re-iterate something which was already known. They were trying to define the unique genius of Carlos Kleiber.

Yes, some composers, like Berg, weren't very good musicians; some modern composers have been self-taught and have little musical training. I'm not sure what your point is here since all of their works require INTERPRETATION. (In any case Berg made 3 attempts at the Matura before finally matriculating!!)

I think you are misunderstanding the difference between playing an instrument and imagining and directing an ensemble.
Sure, there are insights to be gained by playing a superior instrument like the French Horn BUT that is a completely different thing to understanding how an ensemble works and how instrumental voicings combine etc

To suggest that Berg wasn't a "very good musician" is ridiculous, haven't you heard the music he wrote ?

Some of the worst conductors are ex violinists