Christmas with the BBC Singers Dec 13

[ardcarp]

Braille music is an adaptation of verbal Braille, not a sepatate system as ordinary musical notation is, and is therefore very clumsy. She said she was often asked how she knew when to come in - she replied that she could sense this from the breathing of the others, but observed that she sometimes kept better time than the sighted singers who should have been watching the conductor!

A blind singer will always be at a disadvantage when working with sighted musicians. It would have been good to know more about how this group evolved techniques which would not have needed to make any such compromises

.

I know little about Braille music. However in France, some musical kids (and I think it was just boys) who were blind went to l'Institut National des Jeunes Aveugles and were able to study the organ. (I think Gaston Liaize was one such.) This may be why there is a great tradition in France for playing from memory and for improvisation.

If anyone knows more about this it would be interesting to hear. (I vaguely remember a BBC Radio 4 play about it, but that was probably ages ago.)

[MrGongGong]

Liked the Pappenheim as a piece, not just for whom it was written and sung.

I bet you I hate Elgar's Oratorios more than you hate the BBC Singers
BUT we might both be more than a little irrational in our rage

Channeling the spirit of the season as usual Drogo

[Nick Armstrong]

I bet you I hate Elgar's Oratorios more than you hate the BBC Singers
BUT we might both be more than a little irrational in our rage

Channeling the spirit of the season as usual Drogo

[oddoneout]

Over 40 years ago a blind lady joined the choir in which my mother sang. The braille copy of the music was very bulky(and not always available) so she had to sit in order to use it, with her dog beside her chair. She was evidently acutely aware of small aural cues(such as the breathing mentioned above), and memorised most of the music, so with some additional support for entries from an adjacent choir member(I think it was discreet finger tapping on her hand) concerts seemed to go OK. Apparently rehearsals were more problematic, with trying to deal with stops and starts, and I imagine must have been pretty tiring.
I can well believe that the blind person's timekeeping was better than the sighted,as mentioned above, as reading the music/looking at the book tends to result in a time lag, presumably as a result of brain processing. It's noticeable how both the ensemble and general quality of the music improves when a conductor tells us to shut our books and sing from memory - although admittedly sometimes the words suffer!

[ardcarp]

When I was a student we had a blind tenor in one of the choirs. He always stood next to me at rehearsals (as I think the powers-that-be had some mistaken notion that I knew what I was doing) and I was amazed at his ability to learn aurally. He had no Braille music BTW. In the early stages he hardly sang at all, but after a few rehearsals he began to join in and by the end he was note-perfect. And this was often not simple repertoire...none of your Whitakers and Lauridsens is those days! So he wasn't just learning tunes, but piking up counting and difficult entries. I remember he was called Reg, so if anyone out there knows him (he'd be about 70/75 ) send me a PM.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I bet you I hate Elgar's Oratorios more than you hate the BBC Singers
BUT we might both be more than a little irrational in our rage

Yes, but your hatred of Elgar's oratorios need not affect others (though you appear to want it to).

The BBC Singers are harder to avoid.

The truth is - I try to like them and keep giving them "one more chance". This week's efforts suggest my hopes will be dashed many more time in the future.

[MrGongGong]

The BBC Singers are harder to avoid.
.

Not when you and Drogo Malcontent go into paroxysms of rage every time they are mentioned, they aren't

[jean]

I bet you I hate Elgar's Oratorios more than you hate the BBC Singers
BUT we might both be more than a little irrational in our rage

Channeling the spirit of the season as usual Drogo

The Pappenheim piece Draco was talking about was neither written for nor sung by the BBC Singers, Mr GG.

You really have missed your target this time.

[MrGongGong]

The Pappenheim piece Draco was talking about was neither written for nor sung by the BBC Singers, Mr GG.

You really have missed your target this time.

I haven't listened to it yet
but will do as she is a really interesting composer
I was only reflecting what seems to always happen when this group are mentioned

[DracoM]

And the people's carol comp winner will be sung for ever on R3 by.....BBCS.......quite a prize.

[jean]

I haven't listened to it yet
but will do as she is a really interesting composer
I was only reflecting what seems to always happen when this group are mentioned

I assumed that when Draco wrote

Liked the Pappenheim as a piece, not just for whom it was written and sung.

he was referring to the fact that the Pappenheim was written for, and sung by, a choir of blind and partially sighted singers, though the website and the bit in Radio Times do their best to obscure this fact.

I started this thread to focus on that.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I started this thread to focus on that.

Oh, but jean ... look at the title you gave your Thread! The RT is positively blatant about the other performers in comparison; any reference to the BBCS is bound to create more comment on them than on what they're performing and/or with whom.

[jean]

Over 40 years ago a blind lady joined the choir in which my mother sang. The braille copy of the music was very bulky(and not always available) so she had to sit in order to use it, with her dog beside her chair. She was evidently acutely aware of small aural cues(such as the breathing mentioned above), and memorised most of the music, so with some additional support for entries from an adjacent choir member(I think it was discreet finger tapping on her hand) concerts seemed to go OK. Apparently rehearsals were more problematic, with trying to deal with stops and starts, and I imagine must have been pretty tiring.
I can well believe that the blind person's timekeeping was better than the sighted,as mentioned above, as reading the music/looking at the book tends to result in a time lag, presumably as a result of brain processing. It's noticeable how both the ensemble and general quality of the music improves when a conductor tells us to shut our books and sing from memory - although admittedly sometimes the words suffer!

When I was a student we had a blind tenor in one of the choirs. He always stood next to me at rehearsals (as I think the powers-that-be had some mistaken notion that I knew what I was doing) and I was amazed at his ability to learn aurally. He had no Braille music BTW. In the early stages he hardly sang at all, but after a few rehearsals he began to join in and by the end he was note-perfect. And this was often not simple repertoire...none of your Whitakers and Lauridsens is those days! So he wasn't just learning tunes, but piking up counting and difficult entries. I remember he was called Reg, so if anyone out there knows him (he'd be about 70/75 ) send me a PM.

Thank you for the serious replies. I have only two experiences of singing in a choir with blind singers. The first was with a bass who'd sung previously in community choirs where everyone learned everything by ear. He couldn't cope. I still feel a bit guilty about that.

The second was with the sop who is on this recording, - she is a fine musician and she does read Braille music. I am hoping to hear more from her about how this choir worked.

...I did listen; I had no strong opinions either about the piece or its performance; I thought it more considerate/diplomatic not to say this.

I am sure they'd rather have an honest opinion!

[jean]

Oh, but jean ... look at the title you gave your Thread! The RT is positively blatant about the other performers in comparison; any reference to the BBCS is bound to create more comment on them than on what they're performing and/or with whom.

I thought people would read my OP, whose purpose was to redress the balance. How wrong I was (with a couple of exceptions...)

[teamsaint]

I thought people would read my OP, whose purpose was to redress the balance. How wrong I was (with a couple of exceptions...)

From your OP it was clear that your interest seemed to be in highlighting the involvement of blind and partially sighted singers.
Those parts of the discussion have been very interesting.
I'm also very surprised to learn that the RT haven't been so "on message"