Tippett's 1st Symphony

[ahinton]

I think from the aspect of "impact" that the very end of the First is something that might well impress itself, Richard. One of the most extraordinary sounds produced in British orchestral writing before 1960.

I have to say that I love it myself, even though I would prize the Second Symphony above it; those repeated octave Es in the finale almost suggest to me an unconscious premonition of those in Luto 3; perhaps Tippett here provides an unwitting link between the opening of La Forza del Destino and that great symphony!

That Tippett is still getting relatively short measure in terms of performance these days never ceases to surprise me; a real individuality of expression is already amply evidence in this piece. OK, he was already 40 when he completed it but, like Carter, he took a long time to find his voice but boy was it worth the wait!

I so want to love the Third Symphony as much as the other three but just can't bring myself to do so; maybe repeated listenings will eventually make that possible...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I so want to love the Third Symphony as much as the other three but just can't bring myself to do so; maybe repeated listenings will eventually make that possible...

I've recently spent some time with the Third - and the First Movement (ie the first half of part one) has "clicked" as a result. The Second and Third Movements have long been favourites of mine ... but the "Finale" ... There is a lot of glorious Music there (not just the Beethoven quotations!) and the vocal writing is largely fine ...

But I cannot, for all my efforts, overcome my repugnance at the chasm between the obscene horrors that the text seeks to express and the risible words that Tippett chose with which to to actually express them.

[ahinton]

I've recently spent some time with the Third - and the First Movement (ie the first half of part one) has "clicked" as a result. The Second and Third Movements have long been favourites of mine ... but the "Finale" ... There is a lot of glorious Music there (not just the Beethoven quotations!) and the vocal writing is largely fine ...

But I cannot, for all my efforts, overcome my repugnance at the chasm between the obscene horrors that the text seeks to express and the risible words that Tippett chose with which to to actually express them.

I know what you mean; it's not the first and will doubtless not be the last example of a composer throwing words at and around his/her music like so many unwitting spanners in the works, although Tippett seems to have been as well versed in this black art as any. There's fine music in the Third Symphony, without doubt - just as there is in The Mask of Time - but I feel almost as though I have to look out for it and wait for it and the symphony as a whole still strikes me as embracing greater confusion of thought and inconsistencies than can be found in the two that preceded it and the one that followed it.

The Beethoven quotations just won't seem to stop coming across as mannerisms rather than inherencies (if there is such a word), almost as though trying to prove an uncertain point (and who was it - Graham Johnson? - that once wrote a spoof essay on Tippett's influence on Beethoven, before Tippett himself wrote the Third Symphony)...

[Richard Barrett]

I cannot, for all my efforts, overcome my repugnance at the chasm between the obscene horrors that the text seeks to express and the risible words that Tippett chose with which to to actually express them.

I must say I don't find Tippett's texts here "risible" at all (or the music, while I'm on the subject, or its relation to Beethoven). The texts strike me not as a problem but in fact as a solution. I think their (shall we say) awkwardness is itself a means of expressing the inexpressibility that they're aiming at, if that doesn't sound too twisted. They're of a piece with the way Tippett's music moves angularly between expressive/stylistic registers. They're part of how the whole symphony is courageous and confronting. Poetic elegance isn't always the point...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Mmnnyerr ... yehbutnobut ... nnnggghhh ... It is a very personal response (mine) and I don't want to state publicly why I used the word "risible", because it's an inadequate reaction/reflex on my part that might well give offence to readers.

The piece is unique in my experience in that I think I'd get closer to the Music if different words were involved - even whilst realizing that "the work" in this particular case is the words. Mine's an irrational "repugnance" based upon what I know words can do ... and what they don't (for me) do here. Is there, do you think, a simultaneous confirmation and repudiation of Adorno's "no poetry after Auschwitz" in the idea that the inexpressible can only be expressed through "awkwardness"?

[Richard Barrett]

Is there, do you think, a simultaneous confirmation and repudiation of Adorno's "no poetry after Auschwitz" in the idea that the inexpressible can only be expressed through "awkwardness"?

That's one way of looking at it - but what I know about Tippett and his thinking suggests that there was nothing so tortuous going on. As you say, it's a personal thing. Some composers are inspired to set the preexistent words of poets; others have their own things to say which they can't compromise by letting a poet say something similar, if more elegant, but not quite the same. I think one can see why Tippett took the latter option, here and elsewhere.

[ahinton]

That's one way of looking at it - but what I know about Tippett and his thinking suggests that there was nothing so tortuous going on. As you say, it's a personal thing. Some composers are inspired to set the preexistent words of poets; others have their own things to say which they can't compromise by letting a poet say something similar, if more elegant, but not quite the same. I think one can see why Tippett took the latter option, here and elsewhere.

Interesting points - and yes, even I think that I can see why Tippett took the latter of those options but I remain unconvinced that this was the most effective route. I'm not, of course, suggesting that I'm right - only that I have personal doubts that, having listened to that work on and off over more than 40 years, have yet to be shrugged off...

Anyway, copied from a thread on another forum:

"Sir Michael Tippett, in common with many other composers, effectively suppressed a large number of early compositions. In fact the Concerto for Double String Orchestra, composed between 1938 and 1939, when Tippett was 34 is the earliest orchestral piece we hear today. The String Quartet No.1 of 1934-35 was revised in 1943 and the Piano Sonata No.1 of 1936-38 also survive as part of the acknowledged body of his compositions. Most of the music he composed between the mid 1920s and late 1930s however remained in manuscript and some of these pieces are lost-including a Concerto in D for flutes, oboe, horn and strings from 1928-30.

One early work which has survived is the Symphony in B flat composed between 1933 and 1934. Tippett rejected this early symphony as "too Sibelian".

The BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra conducted by Martyn Brabbins has embarked on a Tippett symphonic cycle with both public performances and recordings for Hyperion. I was fortunate enough to attend the performance of the Symphony No.1 in Glasgow on Thursday. The first symphony is not often performed (this was only its fourth performance in Scotland and its first since 1975) but it is a powerful work and I think that Brabbins gave a better, more passionate rendering than either Sir Colin Davis or Richard Hickox in the two versions that are available on cd. It certainly augers well for the Hyperion recording.

What is also exciting however is that there will be at least a public performance at some point (which will be broadcast) of the Symphony in B flat. The Tippett Foundation has given its agreement to the revival of the early Symphony.

Over the last few years we have been able to hear for the first time a lot of the early music of a number of British composers-Vaughan Williams has been an obvious example-and the rediscovery of such early music has gone a long way to expand and enhance our knowledge of the development of these composers' music. Hearing the early Tippett symphony should be, at the very least, an interesting experience."

[Pulcinella]

Good to read that Hyperion are indeed recording the cycle.

[Daniel]

The Beethoven quotation just won't seem to stop coming across as mannerisms rather than inherencies (if there is such a word), almost as though trying to prove an uncertain point

I have to say I find the Beethoven quotation and the way it is followed by a short, quiet lament on strings very moving - very far removed from a mannerism, more a primal scream from the gut, I'd say. Emotionally it feels entirely justified, and its point seems most germane to me. It also seems to be structurally very coherent, being something of a pre echo of the strong brass/quiet strings, in the final moments of the work, and in line too with the 'arrest' and 'movement' construction of the symphony.

I understand why ferney (#17) might feel an uncomfortable disjuncture between text and subject. I see the text as contrasting the personal and intimate with a vast, crushing antithesis, but Tippett does seem to expect you to take quite long imaginative leaps. He's showing you a lamb, hoping you know there's a tiger in the background, to paraphrase a Blake quote Tippet himself refers to.
But by the fourth song, there seems far less ironic dissonance between words/music and grotesqueness of subject ('So if the worm was given love lust, Let him stay patient in his place.' ... not much point in procreation if it is for this? .. what's the point in carrying on? .. the Martin Luther King reference and so on), to me it seems a powerful musing on the subject.


Very interesting indeed is Tippet talking about this subject, the Beethoven allusions and the inspiration of Das lied von Der Erde. This link should take you to him doing just that on google books (it doesn't allow me to copy and paste!).

Back on topic, those final chords of the First Symphony are frightening!

[ahinton]

I have to say I find the Beethoven quotation and the way it is followed by a short, quiet lament on strings very moving - very far removed from a mannerism, more a primal scream from the gut, I'd say. Emotionally it feels entirely justified, and its point seems most germane to me. It also seems to be structurally very coherent, being something of a pre echo of the strong brass/quiet strings, in the final moments of the work, and in line too with the 'arrest' and 'movement' construction of the symphony.

OK; well, as I've said before, I'm not "right" about this - it's just the way it feels to me even after many listenings; I'm sure that he meant well and it was utterly sincere, so it';s obvious that I just don;t "get" it for some reason.

I understand why ferney (#17) might feel an uncomfortable disjuncture between text and subject. I see the text as contrasting the personal and intimate with a vast, crushing antithesis, but Tippett does seem to expect you to take quite long imaginative leaps. He's showing you a lamb, hoping you know there's a tiger in the background, to paraphrase a Blake quote Tippet himself refers to.
But by the fourth song, there seems far less ironic dissonance between words/music and grotesqueness of subject ('So if the worm was given love lust, Let him stay patient in his place.' ... not much point in procreation if it is for this? .. what's the point in carrying on? .. the Martin Luther King reference and so on), to me it seems a powerful musing on the subject.


Very interesting indeed is Tippet talking about this subject, the Beethoven allusions and the inspiration of Das lied von Der Erde. This link should take you to him doing just that on google books (it doesn't allow me to copy and paste!).

I really must have another go at this! Perhaps I've been missing the point all along (and I say that as one who has long admired Tippett's best work immensely).

Back on topic, those final chords of the First Symphony are frightening!

Er - yes!

[Daniel]

OK; well, as I've said before, I'm not "right" about this - it's just the way it feels to me even after many listenings;

I'm sure you're just as right as I am, it's just our 'rights' aren't the same. It would be very interesting to hear a work one doesn't particularly care for through the ears of somebody who does, perhaps even vice versa. The extent to which this is possible on this forum is I must say one of the most rewarding things.

(earlier Tippett link now corrected)

[Alison]

Great posts Daniel.

[Richard Barrett]

I have to say I find the Beethoven quotation and the way it is followed by a short, quiet lament on strings very moving - very far removed from a mannerism, more a primal scream from the gut, I'd say. Emotionally it feels entirely justified, and its point seems most germane to me. It also seems to be structurally very coherent, being something of a pre echo of the strong brass/quiet strings, in the final moments of the work, and in line too with the 'arrest' and 'movement' construction of the symphony.

I understand why ferney (#17) might feel an uncomfortable disjuncture between text and subject. I see the text as contrasting the personal and intimate with a vast, crushing antithesis, but Tippett does seem to expect you to take quite long imaginative leaps. He's showing you a lamb, hoping you know there's a tiger in the background, to paraphrase a Blake quote Tippet himself refers to.
But by the fourth song, there seems far less ironic dissonance between words/music and grotesqueness of subject ('So if the worm was given love lust, Let him stay patient in his place.' ... not much point in procreation if it is for this? .. what's the point in carrying on? .. the Martin Luther King reference and so on), to me it seems a powerful musing on the subject.

All of this structural stuff is very well observed. (I hadn't myself explicitly made the connection between the "movement/arrest" topic and the first Beethoven quote with the quiet strings emerging from its resonance.) Is Tippett's text at the same time too direct and too oblique? This could be said to also be a feature of the music, and not only here.

Anyway: good news about Martyn B conducting the cycle - a conductor with much more experience of post-Tippett music than either Davis or Hickox (or Solti) will no doubt bring much fresh insight. (Tippett himself wasn't such a great conductor was he?)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

All of this structural stuff is very well observed. (I hadn't myself explicitly made the connection between the "movement/arrest" topic and the first Beethoven quote with the quiet strings emerging from its resonance.)

It is, indeed - and neither had I: one of those "obvious once you know" observations of brilliance. Many thanks, Daniel.

[Daniel]

Why, thank you, all.

Is Tippett's text at the same time too direct and too oblique? This could be said to also be a feature of the music, and not only here.)

I couldn't say, the jury's still clearly out for many, I'm happy with that up in the air state of affairs ... as you said earlier, he takes risks, and sometimes that's the only way to get at the important stuff.

Words stay the same but what's understood by them seems potentially unending (different people, same person different mood/situation etc) and the more ambiguous a connection, in a way the more potential it has. I remember listening to the Knot Garden when still at school, and finding the words more memorable than any of the 'great' librettists, (... even as I write 'Ca .. ca .. Caliban' comes echoing down the years ) only to find out later that many people thought it was awful.
I think I unconsciously give Tippett lots of wiggle room, because I trust him, if that makes sense, and I'm interested in his 'mistakes' (whatever that might mean) as well as his triumphs.