When is a flute a recorder?

[Richard Barrett]

I suppose the difference is that the/an ocarina isn't a tube.

Quite - an ocarina differs from other flute-type instruments in being an enclosed vessel rather than an open-ended tube. They come in many shapes in fact, although they're characterised indeed by not being tubular like most flute-type instruments. I have one that's shaped like a bird and another like a little potato. Ligeti writes for four of them in his Violin Concerto (played by the oboist, bassoonist and both clarinettists) which, like a lot of Ligeti's work, is concerned with the musical possibilities of non-tempered tuning - it's almost impossible to play an ocarina in tune.

[gurnemanz]

I should still have somewhere my LP with Bernard Krainis, playing what I think is that concerto on a sopranino in C major - https://www.discogs.com/Vivaldi-Tele...elease/3323513

Re Telemann. His Concerto in E minor for flute, recorder and strings has beautiful birdsong-like interplay between the two instruments. I don't know how unusual this concerto combination is. I have an excellent recording with Camerata Köln. It turns out to be an oft-recorded work. http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/w/140516/1

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

So what about the Ocarina?


Has anyone else ever posessed or even seen one?

I have one and like to think I'm quite proficient at playing it. I would challenge the notion that ocarinas have poor tuning. That's generally the fault of the player.

[Flay]

(until my brother trod on it one day).

Ha ha. That reminded me of when I was young and incessantly playing on my descant recorder, one of my brothers grabbed it from me and snapped it over his leg, to my great distress!

It was a Dolmetsch. Luckily it was only the base of the head that was damaged, and I managed to repair it with Isopon

[Richard Barrett]

I would challenge the notion that ocarinas have poor tuning. That's generally the fault of the player.

Obviously Ligeti wasn't reckoning on having a virtuoso like yourself playing them! My experience is that breath pressure on a given fingering can alter the pitch quite widely in either direction, to a far greater extent than on a recorder for example.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I said I was proficient, not virtuosic.

Getting back to recorders, some modern designs are powerful enough to sound almost like flutes.

The Eagle flute is a very powerful acoustic recorder, a better solution imo than Mollenhauer's Elody, which can be amplified.

[Richard Barrett]

Getting back to recorders, some modern designs are powerful enough to sound almost like flutes.

The Eagle flute is a very powerful acoustic recorder, a better solution imo than Mollenhauer's Elody, which can be amplified.

I haven't seen either of those in action; recorder players I've worked with tend to use more straightforwardly "baroque" instruments (or even "Ganassi" types, which several composer have written specially for), with the exception of the Paetzold models for bass and lower. Sounding like flutes isn't really an advantage though, is it? If that's what a composer wants he/she would do better just to write for flute.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Sounding like flutes isn't really an advantage though, is it? If that's what a composer wants he/she would do better just to write for flute.

I agree. I really can't see the point of creating a version of an instrument that loses its basic distinctive sound.

[vinteuil]

I agree. I really can't see the point of creating a version of an instrument that loses its basic distinctive sound.

... why, for example, would one want to create a pianoforte so different from the sound world of a Schantz, a Graf, a Pleyel to perform the works of Mozart, Beethoven, or Chopin? What on earth is the point of a modern Steinway attempting to attain the intentions of those composers?? - it surely can't be trying to "improve" upon the sound-world understood by such composers?

[Richard Barrett]

... why, for example, would one want to create a pianoforte so different from the sound world of a Schantz, a Graf, a Pleyel to perform the works of Mozart, Beethoven, or Chopin?

Someone had to say it!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

... why, for example, would one want to create a pianoforte so different from the sound world of a Schantz, a Graf, a Pleyel to perform the works of Mozart, Beethoven, or Chopin? What on earth is the point of a modern Stei- it surely can't be trying to "improve" upon the sound-world understood by such composers?

The pianoforte was in a constant state of development for its first 130 years, from the years of prototypes from the 1720s up until the iron-framed overstrung pianos of the 1860s.

If you prefer the sound of these early instruments in Mozart, etc, that's fine, but please don't denigrate those who prefer a modern Steinway. There's nowt wrong with seeking a better sound.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

There's nowt wrong with seeking a better sound.

Absolutely - that's why so many performers and listeners returned to Schantz, Graf, Broadwood, Pleyel to hear how much better Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin sounds on those instruments.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

[Bryn]

Absolutely - that's why so many performers and listeners returned to Schantz, Graf, Broadwood, Pleyel to hear how much better Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin sounds on those instruments.

Quite. The 'improved' bland even tone of a modern Steinway just does not do full justice to the compositional nuances of those who wrote for, and had intimate knowledge of the sonic and tactile properties of, the instruments of their time. Many fine pianists today have striven to adjust their touch to overcome some of the deficiencies of modern instruments but the tonal properties of the various parts of the instruments' compass continue to defeat such efforts to a considerable extent.

[Hornspieler]

Getting away from pianos and back to the subject of flutes, where does the Nose Flute come into all this?
Could you play a concerto on a nose flute? Since the player has two nostrils, could he play a duet?

(Only joking, but let's return to the OPs subject ...

HS