A dull composer?

[aeolium]

I completely agree, StephenO - and not forgetting the String Quintets and (my own favourite of all his chamber works) the Horn Trio.

[Serial_Apologist]

I really must try Brahms's chamber works again. I was too immature last time to not think them boring. I love Max Reger's chamber works, and he found something to work on in Brahms that took the music a step in the direction of Schoenberg.

S-A

[scottycelt]

I've never understood Brahms being intimidated by the legacy of Beethoven. That's a bit like Harrison Birtwistle being intimidated by Elgar. Except that Brahms was born 6 years after Beethoven died. There were rather a lot of other composers in the 19th century who seemed quite able to overcome this huge "handicap".

I've never quite grasped that one either. Also, the idea that Brahms was/is considered by some to be the 'natural' successor to Beethoven. Why the 'natural'?.

To be fair to Brahms, he himself appeared to think that such a curiously blinkered tag was a bit too much to bear as well.

I've just found this uncannily recent article by the conductor, Christian Thielemann, which also suggests that blinkered music-lovers of any persuasion should be firmly dragged into the dunces' corner.

http://www.lucernefestival.ch/en/about_us/news/christian_thielemann_beendet_alte_grabenkaempfe/

[scottycelt]

Actually, on closer inspection, the words in the aforementioned article appear to be by one, Matthias Creutziger, but the point's the same ...

[Petrushka]

I've never quite grasped that one either. Also, the idea that Brahms was/is considered by some to be the 'natural' successor to Beethoven. Why the 'natural'?.

To be fair to Brahms, he himself appeared to think that such a curiously blinkered tag was a bit too much to bear as well.

I don't suppose that Brahms did himself any favours by quoting the 'Joy' theme from Beethoven's Choral in the last movement of his 1st Symphony.

No, the real link between Beethoven and the world of Mahler, Bruckner and hence on to Shostakovich is surely Schubert's 'Great' C Major, the 9th Symphony - which also quotes that 'Joy' theme from Beethoven. Schubert intended the piece to be on a Beethovenian scale and is a work of pivotal importance in the development of music.

By the way, I don't find Brahms in the least bit boring.

[Nick Armstrong]

Which new grounds did Bruckner reach then, apart from (as many say, not me) recomposing one symphony ten times?

Just to chuck an irrelevant feline among the late Romantic pigeons, I have always thought that the chief offender in the 'recomposing' game was Vivaldi - hundreds of works conforming to the same template using the same harmonic and melodic tricks. Every time I hear Vivaldi, it seems to me he had the happy knack of recomposing similar material over and over again, nice to listen to in small doses but ultimately not a patch on Handel for instance (e.g. Vivaldi's operas )...

[vinteuil]

Caliban - I see quite a lot more work on you is required; more than I had anticipated. You have already let us know that you still didn't really appreciate earlier forms of the piano - and now this. Ah well, from other hints you have let drop it emerges that you are still young; some of these things take a little time to learn to appreciate...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I don't suppose that Brahms did himself any favours by quoting the 'Joy' theme from Beethoven's Choral in the last movement of his 1st Symphony.

I've never found the two themes to be particularly similar, even though Brahms himself acknowledged the jibe. However, I do think the Brahms theme was quoted by Dvorak in his cello concerto.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

... I have always thought that the chief offender in the 'recomposing' game was Vivaldi - hundreds of works conforming to the same template using the same harmonic and melodic tricks.

I used to think the same, but it was based on a limited diet of "Spring" from The Four Seasons, and the Gloria opening. These are indeed harmonically dull, compared with similar works by other baroque composers of note, but delve a little deeper...

Not so sure about Vinteuil's perceived enthusiasm for early pianos though. It took many years to get that highly compex instrument up to scratch. Burn me at the stake if you want.

[Nick Armstrong]

Caliban - I see quite a lot more work on you is required; more than I had anticipated. You have already let us know that you still didn't really appreciate earlier forms of the piano - and now this. Ah well, from other hints you have let drop it emerges that you are still young; some of these things take a little time to learn to appreciate...

May I say, Monsieur Vinteuil, that it would be an honour to be led by you unto the paths of righteousness...

Despite my comparative youth (thanks for that ) several decades have led to my conclusions - but my mind I hope remains open. Unless, that is, you are also going to try to make me appreciate Liszt

[vinteuil]

Not so sure about Vinteuil's perceived enthusiasm for early pianos though. It took many years to get that highly compex instrument up to scratch.

Eine Alpensinfonie - I very much enjoy the sound made by modern Steinway/Bechstein/Bösendorfer/Fazioli pianos. They are particularly good in modern works.
I don't share your view that the evolution of the piano has been an unmitigated 'improvement'. (But then I have a strong resistance to a whig sense of history... )
For me Haydn and Mozart sound best with Stein/Dulcken/Walter/Streicher - Beethoven and Schubert with Broadwood/Walter/Graf/Schantz - Chopin with Erard/Pleyel instruments. In the same way that I prefer French harpsichord works played on Taskin/Hemsch/Goermans - Buxtehude on a Ruckers - Frescobaldi on Italian instruments...

[Petrushka]

I've never found the two themes to be particularly similar, even though Brahms himself acknowledged the jibe. However, I do think the Brahms theme was quoted by Dvorak in his cello concerto.

Also by Mahler in the opening horn theme of the 3rd Symphony. I like to think of these quotes as a homage from one composer to another. A double homage in Mahler's case.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Also by Mahler in the opening horn theme of the 3rd Symphony.

Yes.
I'd never noticed this one before. Interesting.

[Roehre]

There is another -and in that case a rather straightforward- Brahms quote in a Mahler symphony: the 1st mvt of Mahler I quotes from the Finale of Brahms 2. I haven't got my Brahms score at hand, but if someone is interested I'll quote the bars.

[Sydney Grew]

and the third mvt of Brahms 4 is like trying to get pxxxxd at a party but having the boss standing over you.

3VS

Think of it as a seventh Brandenburg Concerto - that might assist.