A dull composer?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Eine Alpensinfonie
    Host
    • Nov 2010
    • 20575

    #61
    Originally posted by Roehre View Post
    There is another -and in that case a rather straightforward- Brahms quote in a Mahler symphony: the 1st mvt of Mahler I quotes from the Finale of Brahms 2. I haven't got my Brahms score at hand, but if someone is interested I'll quote the bars.
    Would this be bars 44 - 46 of the Brahms 2 finale and bars 18-20 of Mahler 1 first movement? Or is there another one? There is indeed a significant relationship here.

    Comment

    • Roehre

      #62
      Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
      Would this be bars 44 - 46 of the Brahms 2 finale and bars 18-20 of Mahler 1 first movement? Or is there another one? There is indeed a significant relationship here.
      Alpensinfonie, for some reason I cannot relate your bar-numbers with my scores.
      In my Dover score of the Brahms symphonies the bars 234-239 of Finale 2 (p.149) are the ones IMO quoted in Mahler 1 1st mvt, Philharmonia study score at fig.1, bars 18-21 (p.4), with an obvious foreshadow earlier at bars 7 and 8 (p.3).

      [btw, a bit off-topic, well: off-composer then :) , but Finale Mahler 1, fig.6, bars 54-62 "Energisch", (especially the trumpet-part b.54-58, strings b.58-62) is quoted in Mahler IX 1st mvt IMO]

      Comment

      • Serial_Apologist
        Full Member
        • Dec 2010
        • 37851

        #63
        Completely off the subject, so please don't bother replying, but I wonder how many have noticed that the second subject to the finale of John Ireland's Piano Concerto seems indubitably indebted to the main slow movement theme of Brahms Symphony No 4.

        S-A

        Comment

        • Eine Alpensinfonie
          Host
          • Nov 2010
          • 20575

          #64
          Originally posted by Roehre View Post
          Alpensinfonie, for some reason I cannot relate your bar-numbers with my scores.
          In my Dover score of the Brahms symphonies the bars 234-239 of Finale 2 (p.149) are the ones IMO quoted in Mahler 1 1st mvt, Philharmonia study score at fig.1, bars 18-21 (p.4), with an obvious foreshadow earlier at bars 7 and 8 (p.3).
          You have exactly the same scores as I do, and we do appear to be referring to the same theme(s). My Brahms reference is really the same as your later one, but rhythmically altered.

          Comment

          • ostuni
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 551

            #65
            Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
            My Brahms reference is really the same as your later one, but rhythmically altered.
            And my scores are also the same editions! There's a crucial difference, though with that earlier (bars 44-46) Brahms extract. The Mahler theme consists of 4 notes, with intervals falling perf 4th, rising semitone, falling perf 4th; this is the same as Brahms 234-9. In bars 44-6, the central interval is a rising tone which actually makes quite a big difference, I think.

            Comment

            • Ventilhorn

              #66
              Originally posted by ostuni View Post
              And my scores are also the same editions! There's a crucial difference, though with that earlier (bars 44-46) Brahms extract. The Mahler theme consists of 4 notes, with intervals falling perf 4th, rising semitone, falling perf 4th; this is the same as Brahms 234-9. In bars 44-6, the central interval is a rising tone which actually makes quite a big difference, I think.
              There are only so many different combinations of notes and duplication of sequences is bound to occur (consider The falling sevenths in Elgar's Enigma theme for instance) Why should Mahler have "borrowed" from Brahms or vice versa?

              The important question is "Does it matter, if one enjoys the result from listening to either?"

              Roll on the Proms, when message boarders will (I hope) begin to talk about PERFORMANCE rather than research.

              VH

              Comment

              • Roehre

                #67
                Originally posted by Ventilhorn View Post
                Roll on the Proms, when message boarders will (I hope) begin to talk about PERFORMANCE rather than research.
                VH
                There are people who are interested in MUSIC I am afraid (and much less so in performances as "XX's Bruckner is better than YYY's" is hardly of any during interest at all), and many do British choral music, which by-the-way is performed during the Proms as well. So methinks you won't comment on the performances of these works, then, Ventilhorn.

                Comment

                • Suffolkcoastal
                  Full Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 3293

                  #68
                  ...and we were of course talking about performing Brahms to start with too and conductors seeming inability to interpret what is in the score in front of them.

                  Comment

                  • amateur51

                    #69
                    Originally posted by Ventilhorn View Post
                    There are only so many different combinations of notes and duplication of sequences is bound to occur (consider The falling sevenths in Elgar's Enigma theme for instance) Why should Mahler have "borrowed" from Brahms or vice versa?

                    The important question is "Does it matter, if one enjoys the result from listening to either?"

                    Roll on the Proms, when message boarders will (I hope) begin to talk about PERFORMANCE rather than research.

                    VH
                    Good to have hornspieler back in fine ear-boxing form

                    Welcome back, tiger!

                    Comment

                    • french frank
                      Administrator/Moderator
                      • Feb 2007
                      • 30509

                      #70
                      Originally posted by Suffolkcoastal View Post
                      ...and we were of course talking about performing Brahms to start with too and conductors seeming inability to interpret what is in the score in front of them.
                      No problem with conductors - I've just ventured £5.99 on a CD of the string quintets. After one play, I look forward to knowing them better. (I like the easy 'completist' exercise here - No 1 of 1882 a sunny piece, No 2 of 1890 more reflective).
                      It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                      Comment

                      • Suffolkcoastal
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 3293

                        #71
                        There both fine and as you say complimentary works, I've got them in a box set of Brahms's Chamber Works without piano.

                        Comment

                        • Roehre

                          #72
                          Originally posted by french frank View Post
                          No problem with conductors - I've just ventured £5.99 on a CD of the string quintets. After one play, I look forward to knowing them better. (I like the easy 'completist' exercise here - No 1 of 1882 a sunny piece, No 2 of 1890 more reflective).
                          The second string quintet is -apart from being an IMO excellent piece of music- for two other reasons interesting as well: the music was originally intended for Brahms' fifth symphony, and -had Brahms' paths not crossed those of clarinettist Richard Mühlfeld for whom the clarinettrio,- quintet and -sonatas were composed- Brahms intended this opus 111 (!) to be his last work, feeling that he by then earned retirement as composer.

                          Comment

                          • Ventilhorn

                            #73
                            Originally posted by amateur51 View Post
                            Good to have hornspieler back in fine ear-boxing form

                            Welcome back, tiger!
                            ? Explain, please. Who is this gentleman to whom you are referring? This name is certainly not on the list of members.

                            Ventilhorn.

                            Comment

                            • salymap
                              Late member
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 5969

                              #74
                              Ventilhorn.

                              Hornspieler and Genialhorn were two hornplayers who wrote on the old BBC MBs. They,like the message boards, are no longer in contact with us.

                              salymap

                              Comment

                              • amateur51

                                #75
                                Originally posted by Ventilhorn View Post
                                ? Explain, please. Who is this gentleman to whom you are referring? This name is certainly not on the list of members.

                                Ventilhorn.
                                'Aha!' said Poirot, his forefinger raised in exclamation.

                                "But please, Herr Ventilhorn, who has said that the person in question is a gentleman? Not Poirot" he pouted, and turning to Hastings 'that is certain, eh mon ami?'

                                Poirot appeared agitated, tapping his hand lightly against his temple, murmuring about 'the little grey cells'.

                                Suddenly he span round and pointed at Ventilhorn "But you know, Herr Ventilhorn! You know it is a gentleman because ... it is YOU! "

                                Salymap gave a little scream, Ventilhorn blenched.

                                "Or should I call you Herr Hornspieler?" said Poirot, his eyes ablaze in triumph.
                                Last edited by Guest; 03-06-11, 13:33. Reason: Dairy errors

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X