A dull composer?

[BBMmk2]

Is it right that the conductors do tend to drag the tempo of the 1st movt of Symp 1?

[Suffolkcoastal]

They do tend to drag the pulse BBM, the main Allegro is in 6/8 and there is a tendency for conductors to take it as slow as dotted crotchet = 110-120, the 6/8 rhythm really should give the movement plenty of forward energy and propulsion and there is also plenty off-beat accentuation and syncopation which gets lost in sluggish performances. I feel a tempo of dotted crotchet = 138 or even a tad quicker would help to maintain the forward thrust of this powerful movement. It would also help to contrast with the rather eerie meno allegro coda with which Brahms unexpectedly but brilliantly ends the movement.

[EdgeleyRob]

nevertheless, is it fair to continue to brand him as such a dull and unadventurous composer?

Mario

I am no music critic and don't have the musical knowledge of many posters on here and don't find Brahms the least bit dull. I also enjoy Bruckner's music.
If a paticular composers music brings pleasure to people does it really matter?

[Roehre]

If a particular composer's music brings pleasure to people, does it really matter?

No, it doesn't (well, at least it shouldn't)

[Auferstehen2]

I am no music critic and don't have the musical knowledge of many posters on here and don't find Brahms the least bit dull. I also enjoy Bruckner's music.
If a paticular composers music brings pleasure to people does it really matter?

Thought I said something similar in my rambling message 23, only EdgeleyRob was probably more succinct!

Mario

[BBMmk2]

They do tend to drag the pulse BBM, the main Allegro is in 6/8 and there is a tendency for conductors to take it as slow as dotted crotchet = 110-120, the 6/8 rhythm really should give the movement plenty of forward energy and propulsion and there is also plenty off-beat accentuation and syncopation which gets lost in sluggish performances. I feel a tempo of dotted crotchet = 138 or even a tad quicker would help to maintain the forward thrust of this powerful movement. It would also help to contrast with the rather eerie meno allegro coda with which Brahms unexpectedly but brilliantly ends the movement.

Ah yes, that would be a more sensible tempo. I quite agree that even the top conductors of the past tended to drag the tempi.I hope that some of them today aretaking note of this discussion!

[aeolium]

I haven't studied Brahms' scores as Suffolkcoastal has, but it seems to me that in quite a number of Brahms' works a certain heaviness or at least weightiness is an essential part of the character of the music and consciously intended - to deny this out of a concern to emphasise transparency and lightness would just be wrong. I was at the CBSO concert earlier this week where Brahms PC 1 was played and the opening of that work is an example. It is dramatic but it is also weighty - maestoso. There are numerous other examples - the German Requiem, the Andante of the first String Sextet, the Double Concerto. Tempi are often measured - moderato or allegro non troppo - which emphasises the sense of weight, together with thick chords and longer notes than would be the norm in classical or early romantic music. Yes, there are examples of lightness and delicacy, especially in the later piano pieces, but it seems wrong to me to attempt to reinterpret the 'heavier' Brahms according to an agenda that may be more appropriate to an earlier period.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Dullness is in the mind really. I did once find Brahms' music dull, not helped by studying the 2nd symphony to death for A-level. But I've got over all that now.

Some of the earlier piano pieces do seem to have "too many notes" though.

I've never understood Brahms being intimidated by the legacy of Beethoven. That's a bit like Harrison Birtwistle being intimidated by Elgar. Except that Brahms was born 6 years after Beethoven died. There were rather a lot of other composers in the 19th century who seemed quite able to overcome this huge "handicap".

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Those who say Bruckner composed the same symphony nine, ten or eleven times are as hopelessly wrong about Bruckner ...

I think this point was illustrated in a well-known book about symphonies (which I shall try to find). It was not being critical of the composer, but it did illustrate the way almost all the symphonies were constructed, and there was a remarkable similarity between them. That is not the same as saying it is the same work composed 9/10 times, but the general point does seem fair?

[Suffolkcoastal]

I haven't studied Brahms' scores as Suffolkcoastal has, but it seems to me that in quite a number of Brahms' works a certain heaviness or at least weightiness is an essential part of the character of the music and consciously intended - to deny this out of a concern to emphasise transparency and lightness would just be wrong. I was at the CBSO concert earlier this week where Brahms PC 1 was played and the opening of that work is an example. It is dramatic but it is also weighty - maestoso. There are numerous other examples - the German Requiem, the Andante of the first String Sextet, the Double Concerto. Tempi are often measured - moderato or allegro non troppo - which emphasises the sense of weight, together with thick chords and longer notes than would be the norm in classical or early romantic music. Yes, there are examples of lightness and delicacy, especially in the later piano pieces, but it seems wrong to me to attempt to reinterpret the 'heavier' Brahms according to an agenda that may be more aBut ppropriate to an earlier period.

The thing is aeolium is that they are not scored heavily and there is often a strong rhythmic pulse giving a certain forward thrust to the music which is evident from the score. Brahms's orchestra is basically the classical orchestra with some occasional additions such as Contrabassoon. Even trombones, though used in all 4 symphonies are actually employed very sparingly, in fact an analysis of Brahms's trombone scoring shows just what a carefully considered orchestrator he was. There are often delightful woodwind passages that get completed obscured if played heavily and too slowly. Yes some movements are slower, the 1st movement of PC1 for example which does require a certain weight. I think it it would be fascinating to hear one of the symphonies played both in the rather heavy 'traditional' manner and then contrast it by playing the same work using some of the tempi I have suggested, just to see what people think. You also will not necessarily lose the weight where required at a slighter quicker tempo, the more heavily scored passages will still sound weighty, but I believe that the dramatic power of the 1st movement of the 1st symphony will be even more enhanced at an increased tempo.

[scottycelt]

I think this point was illustrated in a well-known book about symphonies (which I shall try to find). It was not being critical of the composer, but it did illustrate the way almost all the symphonies were constructed, and there was a remarkable similarity between them. That is not the same as saying it is the same work composed 9/10 times, but the general point does seem fair?

Yes, one can hardly deny that.

Werner Wolff in his rather entertaining (and possibly exaggerated) account of Bruckner's life Rustic Genius even appears to concede that the composer did tell the same story over and over again in a different way each time, but it is because it is such a great story that we never tire of listening to it, though obviously some do!

Again, I think there is at least a grain of truth in that, but, by the time he had arrived at the Ninth, Bruckner's gaze seems to be firmly fixed towards the orchestral (and social) cacophony of the 20th Century compared to the rather backward-looking younger musician who had tentatively started out on his great symphonic journey.

Sorry, this thread is supposed to be about Brahms ...

[aeolium]

The thing is aeolium is that they are not scored heavily and there is often a strong rhythmic pulse giving a certain forward thrust to the music which is evident from the score. Brahms's orchestra is basically the classical orchestra with some occasional additions such as Contrabassoon.

I agree with your point that some interpretations of Brahms' orchestral works are too heavy and too slow, Suffolkcoastal, but the point I was trying to make is that the heaviness (not a satisfactory adjective here - perhaps weightiness or seriousness) can be part of the character of the music irrespective of the forces Brahms was using. Listen to the Andante of the first String Sextet for instance - the measured tread is nothing to do with the number of instruments employed and cannot be lightened. Similarly the 'Denn alles Fleisch, es ist wie Gras' movement of the German Requiem. It is an 'ernsthaft' quality that is to be found in many of Brahms' works, both chamber and orchestral.

[Serial_Apologist]

I've never understood Brahms being intimidated by the legacy of Beethoven. That's a bit like Harrison Birtwistle being intimidated by Elgar. Except that Brahms was born 6 years after Beethoven died. There were rather a lot of other composers in the 19th century who seemed quite able to overcome this huge "handicap".

Harrison Birtwistle did make the comment that Elgar was one of the last great masterers of sonata form, in his Desert Island Discs, illustrating by reference to the symphonies, iirc. But surely you can't be arguing the symphonies of Schumann and Mendelssohn to be anything other than in the shadows of Beethoven, Mozart and Haydn? My own view is that Brahms recognised that no other composer had measured up to Beethoven's achievement in the development of form in the classical Germanic heritage since his death, and felt himself to be the bearer, fitted for righting that delay in a succession.

S-A

[Suffolkcoastal]

I agree about the Sextets and German Requiem, some of Brahms's music does have a deliberate slow heavy dragging pulse. I believe that some of the tempi generally adopted in some movements of the symphonies for example the 4th movement of the 4th seems about right. But some movements ie 1st movement of No 1, the 1st and 3rd movement of no 3 and the 1st & 3rd movements of No 4, seem to need more impetus which appears to be borne out by analysing the score. Two examples, the driving syncopation in bars 51-70 in the 1st movement of No 1 (and Brahms marks the movement Allegro), and the opening of the 3rd movement of No 3, I know here Brahms is a little obscure in his tempo marking of poco Allegretto, but the clue in in the imitative accompanying figuration marked 'leggiero' which sounds somewhat mechanical if played two slowly, at dotted crotchet = C60 the figuration gives a lovely whispering colouring to the slightly melancholic lilting theme in the cellos. As I mentioned earlier I just wish a conductor would try it out in performance, I may be completely wrong, but this is what I instinctively feel and hear.

[StephenO]

It is a pity indeed (for a discussion as this) that Bruckner as fullgrown composer didn't do much more than symphonies, masses and motets.

It certainly is, particularly if his sadly negleced String Quintet is anything to go by.

Fine though much of Brahms's orchestral music is (particulary the Third Symphony and the First Piano Concerto), his real genius (IMO anyway) emerges most clearly in his chamber works - the Piano Quintet, the String Sextets and Quartets and, above all, his sublime pieces for clarinet. No other composer, with the exception of Mozart, has ever written so beautifully or so movingly for the instrument. He knew exactly how to get the best from it. The Quintet, Trio and Sonatas are all real gems of the clarinet repertoire.