The Viennese Schools

[Guest]

Currently in Manchester to watch a historic event tomorrow (which Liverpudlians won’t want to know about), I’ve just picked up a 5-CD box with Rattle (BPO and CBSO) entitled the 2nd Viennese School. I’ve been Wiki-ing feverishly as I have no idea what these schools are (incidentally, genuine question, is there a 4th V Sch in the making?). The CDs include

Berg Lulu Suite
Violin Concerto (Kremer)

Brahms/Schoenberg Piano Quartet No 1

Schoenberg A Survivor from Warsaw
5 Orchestral Pieces Op 16
Chamber Symphony No 1
Erwartung
Gurrelieder
Variations for Orch Op 31

Webern Five Orchestral Pieces Op 10
Six Orchestral Pieces Op 6

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that more by luck than judgement, I’ve picked on some good works as a point of entry into this for me, strange “brand, new (modern) world”

Mario

[Serial_Apologist]

I have and can strongly recommend the Rattle CD. Some of this is strong stuff, but well worth persevering with. Try if you can also to get a recording of the Schoenberg String Quartet No 1 in D minor, Op 7, of 1905. Written just before the Chamber Symphony No 1 it provides an imv necessary linkeage for full understanding back through string quartets by Max Reger and Brahms to the late Beethoven quartets, a useful reference point. Better still if the Arditti quartet recordings of all the Schoenberg quartets are still around.

Third Viennese School posts intermittently (these days) on this board. Clink on Community at the top of this page and follow the links to members, where you should find his postings, I think. He (?) claims to write 12-tone pop tunes, and is based in the Medway area, one surmises, judging by the number of beer festivals in Kent he lets us know about!

S-A

[Roehre]

Currently in Manchester to watch a historic event tomorrow (which Liverpudlians won’t want to know about), I’ve just picked up a 5-CD box with Rattle (BPO and CBSO) entitled the 2nd Viennese School. I’ve been Wiki-ing feverishly as I have no idea what these schools are (incidentally, genuine question, is there a 4th V Sch in the making?). The CDs include

Berg Lulu Suite
Violin Concerto (Kremer)

Brahms/Schoenberg Piano Quartet No 1

Schoenberg A Survivor from Warsaw
5 Orchestral Pieces Op 16
Chamber Symphony No 1
Erwartung
Gurrelieder
Variations for Orch Op 31

Webern Five Orchestral Pieces Op 10
Six Orchestral Pieces Op 6

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that more by luck than judgement, I’ve picked on some good works as a point of entry into this for me, strange “brand, new (modern) world”

Mario

Auferstehen, a really great set you've got.
How to tackle this repertoire?

First and foremost: listen with completely open ears, as this is wunderful music, between nearly megalomaniac orchestral/vocal (Schönberg's Gurrelieder, in forces similar to Mahler 8) and a much polished diamond like score (Webern's pieces opus 10: less than 5 minutes, but what a gems these 5 little pieces are, the shortest around 20 seconds).

My order (from hindsight, as I went through that process of getting to know these pieces some 35 years ago) would be:

Schönberg: Survivor from Warsaw,
as this is the literally most hair raising piece of the whole set, musically, but more importantly: emotionally. But with a warning: if you've lost relatives in the holocaust yourself, or were otherwise involved in the atrocities of WW2, this may be music which can cause severe emotional reactions.

Then, with Brahms as point of departure:
Brahms/Schönberg: Piano quartet op.25, basically a kind of Brahms Fifth symphony.

Schönberg's Gurrelieder to follow. Great story, high romanticism at its best IMO, impressive. Won't cause you much trouble to appreciate, though it might be advisable to enjoy it by 2 or 3 bits, as an-hour-and-a-half is a long sit.

Schönberg's Kammersymphonie no.1.
It is helpful to listen to Mahler's Symphony no.7 1st mvt before tackling the Chambersymphony, as there are strong similarities in terms of melodic structure and atmosphere. The Chambersymphony is a four mvt symphony compressed into one movement following "old fashioned" sonata-form.

As a contrast:
Webern pieces opus 6 and 10.
I always take these pieces with me holidaying in the Alps. All these 11 pieces are in one way or another related to alpine landscapes and flowers (according to Webern himself), though the original 6 pieces opus 6 were wearing titles, pointing at Webern's travelling home, his premonitions and eventual experiencing his mother's passing away and her funeral (If not supplied in the accompanying notes, please let me know).

Returning to
Schönberg Pieces for orchestra opus 16.
Pure music, though here again the pieces were not a purely musically conceived as sometimes is thought.
The revolutionary no.3, essentially one chord coloured by different instrumental combinations, is a lake with changing colours in sunlight during the day, according to the composer. He gave other descriptions for the 4 other movements too (Again: If not supplied in the accompanying notes, please let me know)

Berg's turn now:
Lulu-suite (or more correctly: Lulu-symphonie).
Though taken from Lulu the opera, these five movements can easily be appreciated as an abstract work.
Beautiful dark mahlerian colours, every movement essentially following a "classic" form (sonata, variations, etc.).
Be prepared for the final moments of the 5th movement however.

Stay with Berg,
Berg Violin concerto
A most important 20C concerto. It may help to appreciate the work by listening to a cantate by JSBach first, especially the chorale from Cantata BWV 60 "O Ewigkeit, du Donnerwort" . This, and a Carinthian (Austrian) folksong, play an important part in this work.
Investing time to listen to this work time and again is most rewarding.

Schönberg's Variationen für Orchester
is a work which could follow the piano quartet immediately as well, and it helps to listen to Brahms' Haydn-variations and more especially the finale of Brahms' 4th symphony. Basically these variations are a kind of Brahms with some "wrong" notes.

And then the opera
Schönberg's Erwartung.
An opera in once scene, a young woman in a dark forest waiting for her lover.
All types of emotions pass and thoughts cross her mind. Is he coming?
Is he still alive? If he isn't, who has killed him then? Did she do so herself? Or is it only a nightmare triggered by the dark forest?
The music is a-thematic, non-repetitive, highly charged, emotionally gripping and 25 minutes of supreme expressionism.

IMO the only real "difficult" piece in this collection, therefore the last one to put ones' teeth into.

Auferstehen: enjoy!

[Serial_Apologist]

A brilliant exposition, Roehr - thanks very much for taking so much trouble.

[Petrushka]

A brilliant exposition, Roehr - thanks very much for taking so much trouble.

I do agree - excellent!

[Auferstehen2]

Serial Apologist and Petrushka, you have stolen my praise! I could not be more indebted to the human encyclopaedia commonly referred to as Roehre. A clearer path through the atonal jungle could not have been made easier. As suggested by Roehre, “A Survivor from Warsaw” will be first. Thanks again,

Best wishes,

Mario

[EdgeleyRob]

A brilliant exposition, Roehr - thanks very much for taking so much trouble.

Oh to be so knowledgeable about all kinds of music!
I took your advice some time ago re Brahms '5th symphony' and was not disappointed.I will now have to dabble in some of the above.

thanks Roehre

[Auferstehen2]

Message #1

"(incidentally, genuine question, is there a 4th V Sch in the making?)"

Well, is there?

Mario

[amateur51]

I do hope that french frank has read Roehre's outstanding week-long 'treatment' for a series covering these marvellous and important works, so humanely linked together. He makes it all sound as tho these Second Viennese School people were ... well, dammit, human beings!

Surely on the basis of this alone FoR3 deserves more attention from BBC

Well done Roehre!

[french frank]

The other lesson is that no one should be afraid to ask questions, however basic they may seem: the informative answers will be appreciated by many more people than the person who asked them

Message #1

"(incidentally, genuine question, is there a 4th V Sch in the making?)"

Well, is there?

"Clarinetist [Franklin] Cohen also began the first work on the program, the world premiere performance of Poème by the Austrian Georg Friedrich Haas. This piece was commissioned by the orchestra. Mr. Haas declares himself of the Fourth Viennese School, which is no doubt why I must confess to being totally at sea with this work. I’ve not yet completely made my peace with the Second School, and was unaware of the existence of the Third, let alone the Fourth." http://www.coolcleveland.com/wiki/Ne...romHereToThere

Third Viennese School

"The term "Third Viennese School" is occasionally used to refer to the composers surrounding the Viennese new music ensemble Klangforum Wien, including its founder Beat Furrer and other late modernists such as Helmut Lachenmann, Olga Neuwirth and Bernhard Lang. "

[amateur51]

"The term "Third Viennese School" is occasionally used to refer to the composers surrounding the Viennese new music ensemble Klangforum Wien, including its founder Beat Furrer and other late modernists such as Helmut Lachenmann, Olga Neuwirth and Bernhard Lang. "

Ah Simon's favourite

He will be pleased

[Auferstehen2]

Roehre,

PM just sent.

Mario

[3rd Viennese School]

Although not Viennese, its good to listen to Stravinsky's late serial works. these are masterpieces and are compltely different to Schoenberg, Webern etc. Although Webern was a starting point for him.

P.S. 3rd Viennese school is just my stage name. I'm not Lachenmann or anything!
3Vs

[hafod]

This thread is resurrected solely as a vehicle to share the following diversion and indeed was the only existing one that could be found that had any relevance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACCAF04wSs

[clive heath]

The things you discover at Art Galleries!!!

The about-to-close Viennese Portrait exhibition at the National Gallery has some paintings by Arnold Schoenberg, one of his son whose bouffant hair conceals his ears and a self-portrait in a bluish tinge (tone?) in which he leaves out one of his own ears (aspirational, eh?!). There is also a painting of his wife by Richard Gerstl hence the following two excerpts from Wiki and apologies if you know this already.

" During the summer of 1908, his (Schoenberg's) wife Mathilde left him for several months for a young Austrian painter, Richard Gerstl. This period marked a distinct change in Schoenberg's work. It was during the absence of his wife that he composed "You lean against a silver-willow" (German: Du lehnest wider eine Silberweide), the thirteenth song in the cycle Das Buch der Hängenden Gärten, Op. 15, based on the collection of the same name by the German mystical poet Stefan George. This was the first composition without any reference at all to a key (Stuckenschmidt 1977, 96). Also in this year, he completed one of his most revolutionary compositions, the String Quartet No. 2, whose first two movements, though chromatic in color, use traditional key signatures, yet whose final two movements, also settings of George, daringly weaken the links with traditional tonality. Both movements end on tonic chords, and the work is not fully non-tonal. Breaking with previous string-quartet practice, it incorporates a soprano vocal line."

"Gerstl and Mathilde became extremely close and, in the summer of 1908, she left her husband and children to travel to Vienna with Gerstl. Schoenberg was in the midst of composing his Second String Quartet, which he dedicated to her. Mathilde rejoined her husband in October.
Distraught by the loss of Mathilde, his isolation from his associates, and his lack of artistic acceptance, Gerstl entered his studio during the night of 4 November 1908 and apparently burned every letter and piece of paper he could find. Although many paintings survived the fire, it is believed that a great deal of his artwork as well as personal papers and letters were destroyed. Other than his paintings, only eight drawings are known to have survived unscathed. Following the burning of his papers, Gerstl hanged himself in front of the studio mirror and somehow managed to stab himself as well.

The incident had a significant impact on Arnold Schoenberg and his "drama with music" (i.e., opera) Die Glückliche Hand is based on these events."

The show also mentions that Gustav Klimt died in 1918 following a stroke brought on by the Spanish Flu epidemic which accounted for between 50 and 100 million people worldwide.
I'd forgotten about that.


p.s. Great Ad in previous post!